Happy Loving Day

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

You do not understand evolution

It seems neither did Darwin.

We trace the history of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, and of genetic Darwinism generally, with a view to showing why, even in its current versions, it can no longer serve as a general framework for evolutionary theory. The main reason is empirical. Genetical Darwinism cannot accommodate the role of development (and of genes in development) in many evolutionary processes. We go on to discuss two conceptual issues: whether natural selection can be the “creative factor” in a new, more general framework for evolutionary theorizing; and whether in such a framework organisms must be conceived as self-organizing systems embedded in self-organizing ecological systems
https://link.springer.com/article/10...752-011-0007-1

Remember science is a work in process.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

I gave you Darwin's own words from his work the Descent of Man.

His own words convict him, but feel free to defend his racism, which sprouted scientific racism and people like Sanger who advocated for the elimination of the lesser races.

Why are they snippets instead of full excerpts?

Some full excerpt that attest to Darwin's humanity

The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable—namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well, or nearly as well developed, as in man. For, firstly, the social instincts lead an animal to take pleasure in the society of its fellows, to feel a certain amount of sympathy with them, and to perform various services for them.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

“With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

Why are they snippets instead of full excerpts?

Some full excerpt that attest to Darwin's humanity

The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable—namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well, or nearly as well developed, as in man. For, firstly, the social instincts lead an animal to take pleasure in the society of its fellows, to feel a certain amount of sympathy with them, and to perform various services for them.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

“As man advances in civilization, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

“With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

[emphasis added]

Are you arguing my point now? I posted snippets, because they sufficed to make my point. But your post really drives home Darwin's racism.

Did you notice the part about marriage and not letting the inferior mix in marriage? That nugget is the basis for the banning of interracial marriages, due to scientific truth that some races are inferior, according to Darwin.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

[emphasis added]

Are you arguing my point now? I posted snippets, because they sufficed to make my point. But your post really drives home Darwin's racism.

Did you notice the part about marriage and not letting the inferior mix in marriage? That nugget is the basis for the banning of interracial marriages, due to scientific truth that some races are inferior, according to Darwin.

You are once again taking snippets out of context

Some full excerpt that attest to Darwin's humanity

The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable—namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well-marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience, as soon as its intellectual powers had become as well, or nearly as well developed, as in man. For, firstly, the social instincts lead an animal to take pleasure in the society of its fellows, to feel a certain amount of sympathy with them, and to perform various services for them.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

Sympathy for our fellows, moral sense of conscience, perform various services for them.....all sound like the better parts of religion.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are once again taking snippets out of context

Sympathy for our fellows, moral sense of conscience, perform various services for them.....all sound like the better parts of religion.

In a perverse sense. The context is that these poor creatures can't take care of themselves and these creatures need their superiors to provide for them. In other words the white man's burden.

I am not acquainted with a religion based on the white man's burden to care for less fortunate races.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

[emphasis added]

Are you arguing my point now? I posted snippets, because they sufficed to make my point. But your post really drives home Darwin's racism.

Did you notice the part about marriage and not letting the inferior mix in marriage? That nugget is the basis for the banning of interracial marriages, due to scientific truth that some races are inferior, according to Darwin.

No you have no point. Darwin was speaking of individual's sexual attraction.

namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”

Men and woman choosing sexual characteristics to help their progeny survive. Not intermarriage. That was the abhorrent southerners believing black men would steal their "pure" white women. The social correction made by the SC in Loving.

[Show Me the Wire]

Darwin's own words from a letter To Charles Lyell.

.....I suppose that you do not doubt that the intellectual powers are as important for the welfare of each being, as corporeal structure: if so, I can see no difficulty in the most intellectual individuals of a species being continually selected; & the intellect of the new species thus improved, aided probably by effects of inherited mental exercise. I look at this process as now going on with the races of man; the less intellectual races being exterminated. But there is not space to discuss this point............
[emphasis added] https://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/lett...-LETT-2503.xml

...Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

Are not the less intellectual races part of the weaker and inferior members of society who should be refrained from marriage with the superior?

Is it not the same less intellectual races, which need our sympathy and care?

Do you still want to defend this racist as being legitimate science?

[Show Me the Wire]

The definition of racism:

rac·ism
/ˈrāˌsizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
"a program to combat racism"
synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance; More
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
"theories of racism"

....I suppose that you do not doubt that the intellectual powers are as important for the welfare of each being, as corporeal structure: if so, I can see no difficulty in the most intellectual individuals of a species being continually selected; & the intellect of the new species thus improved, aided probably by effects of inherited mental exercise. I look at this process as now going on with the races of man; the less intellectual races being exterminated. But there is not space to discuss this point............
[emphasis added] https://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/lett...-LETT-2503.xml

The above sentiment a perfect fit of the definition of racism. Do you really want to defend this racism as legitimate science?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Actor

The present view is that race itself is not a scientific concept.

Are you saying science cannot differentiate between Races and the classifications used by anthropologists are not scientific?

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Actor

U.S. Supreme Court Decision, Loving vs. Virginia, 12 June 1967, struck down anti-miscegenation laws in the U.S. Interracial marriage is constitutional right.

Shows what you get when trying to share a bit of good news with this crowd.

I'd think twice before doing that again.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

What does your above comment indicate, a work in progress? By definition it is incomplete and cannot be trusted as fact.

Can anything be trusted as fact?

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Just an excuse for all the errors.

Not an excuse but an acceptance of the situation. All knowledge is uncertain.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

The past view is race is part of the scientific umbrella.

Scientific umbrella?

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Darwin was a racists and his theory is steeped in racism, i.e. tree of life.

(1)Darwin's personal view and his scientific findings are two separate things.

(2)The tree of life is established fact.

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

If I believe your excuse than I must believe a theory based in racism is inherently flawed and has no factual basis.

Darwin's theory is not based on racism. It's based on years of research and is in no way dependent on racism. It has passed peer review. Are you claiming all those peers are also racist?

The theory was independently discovered by Wallace. Are you claiming Wallace was also a racist?

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Actor

Can anything be trusted as fact?

Not an excuse but an acceptance of the situation. All knowledge is uncertain.

Scientific umbrella?

(1)Darwin's personal view and his scientific findings are two separate things.

(2)The tree of life is established fact.

Darwin's theory is not based on racism. It's based on years of research and is in no way dependent on racism. It has passed peer review. Are you claiming all those peers are also racist?

The theory was independently discovered by Wallace. Are you claiming Wallace was also a racist?

Umbrella in the colloquial sense of coverage. The man's words speak for themselves. I haven't read all his peers, however, hcap posted racism was the prevailing view at the time, so I will take his word that racism was rampant in the scientific community.

The fact is there is scientific racism. Racism supported through "empirical" evidence championed by Darwin and his son.

I remember my visits, during my youth, to the Field Museum of Natural History, in Chicago, and the evolution exhibit comparing Caucasian, negroid and ape skulls and other so-called measurable.

And racism is baked into his theory. I look at this process as now going on with the races of man; the less intellectual races being exterminated. Darwin

Amazing how many people want to defend this racist.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

U.S. Supreme Court Decision, Loving vs. Virginia, 12 June 1967, struck down anti-miscegenation laws in the U.S. Interracial marriage is constitutional right.

I'm curious why the thumbs up, in a world where a value judgment like Loving vs. Virginia isn't "justice", but merely "difference". Why not just a shrug?

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Are you saying science cannot differentiate between Races and the classifications used by anthropologists are not scientific?

How can it be so? According to Actor it is impossible for anything to be trusted as a fact. Also, all knowledge is uncertain.

[Show Me the Wire]

African American State Representative Sharon Broome of Louisiana sponsored a resolution to condemn "Darwinist ideology" as racist.

WHEREAS, empirical science has documented an indisputable commonality among all people groups, or races, and has demonstrated that normal variations in the human gene pool account for our differences, of which racial differences are a trivial portion; and

WHEREAS, the writings of Charles Darwin, the father of evolution, promoted the justification of racism, and his books On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection: or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life and The Descent of Man postulate a hierarchy of superior and inferior races; and

WHEREAS, Adolf Hitler and others have exploited the racist views of Darwin and those he influenced, such as German zoologist Ernst Haekel, to justify the annihilation of millions of purportedly racially inferior individuals.

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislature of Louisiana does hereby deplore all instances and ideologies of racism, does hereby reject the core concepts of Darwinist ideology that certain races and classes of humans are inherently superior to others, and does hereby condemn the extent to which these philosophies have been used to justify and approve racist practices.

HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 74 BY REPRESENTATIVE BROOME

An African American, speaking her constituents, believes Darwin's theories are racists and have been used to to promote racism.