Waiver claiming/optional claiming

[razor]

Was hoping for some understanding in this rule. If the condition of the race states you have to run for a certain claim price to be eligible but you claim the waiver in that race have you ran for that claim price? Is that a qualifying race to fit the condition? On a second part how do you treat a horse in your handicapping that fits the condition of an optional claiming race but still chooses the claiming tag anyway? Positive? Negative? Thanks in advance for any insight.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by razor

Was hoping for some understanding in this rule. If the condition of the race states you have to run for a certain claim price to be eligible but you claim the waiver in that race have you ran for that claim price? Is that a qualifying race to fit the condition? On a second part how do you treat a horse in your handicapping that fits the condition of an optional claiming race but still chooses the claiming tag anyway? Positive? Negative? Thanks in advance for any insight.

If you claim the waiver the horse is still eligible for starter races using the price he "could" have been claimed for.

As for running for the tag when they are still eligible for the condition. I've stopped trying to figure that one out. There can be any number of reason that have nothing to do with the horses competitive chances. Maybe they're rolling the dice because the purse for the condition is much larger at the next meeting. Maybe they are dissolving a partnership. Maybe the guy just can use the money?

[The_Turf_Monster]

The waiver claiming is essentially a tool to allow for owners to run a horse coming off a lay-off and not be concerned about losing it to a claim

As far as handicapping it goes, you need to treat those races as two separate classes of horses running together and handicap each separately similar to how you will see a Maryland bred running at Pimlico or Laurel at a lower tag because they get a bonus for where they were bred

I’ll edit to add that it’s better to not bet waiver claiming races, especially on the turf, unless you’re looking to see a random result and likely lose your money. There’s no rhyme or reason u less you have spoken with the connections to know why the horse is entered and what its training regimens has been

[razor]

I have attempted to upload an attachment of the PP in question. The horse is
Florida Bird in a race this friday at Oaklawn. It is an optional claimer 16,000 for Fillies/Mares who have started for 10,000 or less in 2021 and 2020. Im spelling it out in case I have not figured the attachment thing out. She has 5 races to consider in 20/21 and only one is below 10,000. It was for 8,000 but she claimed the waiver. She is being run for the 16,000 tag today but is it cause she has to or wants to? Did that 8,000 tag race she ran with the waiver allow her to run without the tag in this race if she wanted to?

[BarchCapper]

Originally Posted by razor

Did that 8,000 tag race she ran with the waiver allow her to run without the tag in this race if she wanted to?

Those starter conditions say "have started for" - if the claiming price is waived - they have not "started for" the claiming price. So I would think not.

There does wind up being additional confusion in these races in the other direction sometimes (depending on the PPs you use), since you will see a horse with nothing below a 12.5K claimer in its PPs entered in a 10K starter. But what happens there is the horse was entered for 10K in the 12.5K claimer - even though it shows as Clm 12.5K in the PPs.

[razor]

Barch I tend to agree with you that in my mind she did not fit the condition so she had to run for the tag. Is this a hard and fast rule no matter what track you are at I wonder? My curiosity is just that if she has to run for the tag that's OK but if she didn't and does run for the tag that's more perplexing. I know Vic said
earlier he quit factoring that in to his evaluating and maybe I should follow suit.
He's a much better handicapper than I am.

[tbwinner]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

If you claim the waiver the horse is still eligible for starter races using the price he "could" have been claimed for.

So I could have a really sore horse, run him up the track for 5k, lay him off for however long, return in a 5K claimer and claim the waiver tag, and run in starters for the next 1-2 years?

I am a little surprised by this, but could not find a proper answer in the Oaklawn condition book.

[tbwinner]

In Allowance conditions, I have seen some horses pop up and win at big prices when running for a tag when they could run under a N2X or otherwise. I have to look back but I remember some shrewd trainers on the Illinois circuit 10-15~ years ago where they would claim cheap, win a N1x, run for the 40k N2x for the tag, WIN, and then run protected under the N2x next time out.

Of course there's no way to tell Formulator to show me all starts where they ran for a tag when didn't need to, but if you pay attention, you might be able to find something.

Or it could be trainer or agent screwing up the entry! (I've had this happen as an owner)

[mountainman]

At mnr and other tracks I've had professional discourse with, wins when invoking the waiver-option are considered claiming wins, but no runner circumventing the tag can acquire str/alw eligibility in the process.