Blog Post: How Much Must You Bet to Play Professionally?

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

We're all over the map in this thread on what makes someone a professional.

This happens because it is a matter of definition and does exist a correct answer. It is a subjective question that can be answered by various ways.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

This happens because it is a matter of definition and does exist a correct answer. It is a subjective question that can be answered by various ways.

Please allow me to anwer this question succinctly:

A professional horseplayer is someone who bets horses for a living...just as a professional dentist is someone who drills teeth for a living.

There is a reason why most people have a hard time defining what a professional horseplayer is. They've never met one.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Please allow me to anwer this question succinctly:

A professional horseplayer is someone who bets horses for a living...just as a professional dentist is someone who drills teeth for a living.

There is a reason why most people have a hard time defining what a professional horseplayer is. They've never met one.

Personally I agree 100% with what you say here Thask. I have already make similar statements in this thread more than once.

It appears that others seem to think different....

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

A professional horseplayer is someone who bets horses for a living...just as a professional dentist is someone who drills teeth for a living.

Is my condition of being an advantage gambler necessary in your definition? I assume so, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel like we are chasing our tails on the professional/bet-size premise set up in the first place. Advantage gambler earning their living from the sport makes someone a professional in my book, regardless of the size of their individual wagers.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by cj

Really? I don't know of a single serious player that thinks numbers alone will give them enough of an edge to beat this game. But you know what, with that takeout as high as it is, if you have numbers that beat Beyer or others by even 1 or 2%, that is worth the time.

You should trying read the posts here sometimes. There are lot of posters trying to come up with a better number and then turn it upside down and inside side out then convert it to a % to come up with a way to beat Beyer's. From what I gather, that is what most of the posters are trying to do with computer programs and spread sheets. If they had to pick a winner without a speed rating and/or a pace rating, they would not have a clue where to start.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

Is my condition of being an advantage gambler necessary in your definition? I assume so, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel like we are chasing our tails on the professional/bet-size premise set up in the first place. Advantage gambler earning their living from the sport makes someone a professional in my book, regardless of the size of their individual wagers.

With the rebates being what they are...you can make a living off this game even without a mathematical advantage.

[wiffleball whizz]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

You should trying read the posts here sometimes. There are lot of posters trying to come up with a better number and then turn it upside down and inside side out then convert it to a % to come up with a way to beat Beyer's. From what I gather, that is what most of the posters are trying to do with computer programs and spread sheets. If they had to pick a winner without a speed rating and/or a pace rating, they would not have a clue where to start.

Are you saying that people are to start just looking at the beyer figure or other speed rating then handicapping from there? That's interesting....I think there's a lot of horseplayers that start from there......maybe I'm not as far off as I think I am in terms of actual racing form paper and pencil compared to other bettors who are strictly going off numbers provided by another source......

I'll hold strong that there are no more then 50 people in country without rebates that can support themselves and a family/or lavish lifestyle....

I know there are a few on here that do bet and either support a family or lifestyle here and for that I can't tell you how much a respect I have for you!!!


I guess the deltoga challenge will let me see how I rank with some of big boys of horse players......I'm using no more then a little simulcast book and some "hawking of the board" made a mistake yesterday putting plays in on cold horses cuz I bet 4 hours ahead of time....

And I agree with RG last sentence

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

With the rebates being what they are...you can make a living off this game even without a mathematical advantage.

Going to bust on you again, my man - rebates factor into being an advantage gambler necessarily. Don't you have to be an advantage gambler - net-net - as the first principle of being a professional? Isn't that what's missing in the bet size/pro dichotomy?

To refer again to online poker - how would you assess someone like Guy Laliberte: played the absolute nosebleed stakes online, played nosebleed stakes in Vegas and appeared on TV poker. But he was a huge donator online and made his immense fortune from founding Cirque du Soleil. Pro poker player or not? I view him as not. Other's mileage may vary, and I feel like that's why the thread title sent the board off on different vectors.

[lamboguy]

if i could turn back the clocks about 25 years, when every house in nevada booked their own horses and offered house quinella's on just about every race, i would never need a rebate to beat this game. the game is about math. i don't even see how anyone can wait until the last minute and think they are going to get the odds that are on the board when the horses cross the wire. i find that my handicapping has very little to do with whom i think is the best horse, its more like handicapping which horses are going to go up in price once the gate opens. they could be short or long priced horses.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

Going to bust on you again, my man - rebates factor into being an advantage gambler necessarily. Don't you have to be an advantage gambler - net-net - as the first principle of being a professional? Isn't that what's missing in the bet size/pro dichotomy?

To refer again to online poker - how would you assess someone like Guy Laliberte: played the absolute nosebleed stakes online, played nosebleed stakes in Vegas and appeared on TV poker. But he was a huge donator online and made his immense fortune from founding Cirque du Soleil. Pro poker player or not? I view him as not. Other's mileage may vary, and I feel like that's why the thread title sent the board off on different vectors.

You can bust on me all you want...but at least make sure your reply has something to do with what I actually posted.

I said two things:

A...A professional horseplayer is someone who bets horses for a living.

And B...With today's rebates...you don't have to have a mathematical advantage on the game in order to make a living at it.

You tell me about Guy Laliberte. Laliberte is a mega-millionaire businessman whose hobby is to play the nosebleed stakes against the world's best players. The late Jerry Buss was another mega-millionaire businessman who enjoyed doing the exact same thing. Both these men openly admit(ted) that they lost big money while playing the game...but they rationalize(d) their heavy losses by reminding everyone that poker was an expensive hobby for them...which they could easily afford. Consequently...how in the world could anyone consider Laliberte to be pro poker player?

Are you confused by my comment that you can make a living off this game without having a mathematical edge while playing it? If so...please allow me to clarify further:

I have an exacta strategy, which I employ on an average of about 90 races a week. I use it when I find a large enough field...in which I consider the favorite to be suspect based on my own handicapping opinion. When I find a situation like that...I will use several horses on the top spot of the exacta, excluding the favorite...with several horses underneath, sometimes including the favorite. Sometimes I will use 3 horses on top with 5 horses second...for a total of 12 bets. At other times, I will use 3 horses on top with 4 horses second...for a total of 9 bets...or a 4-horse exacta box...also for a total of 12 bets. The number of horses that I use is determined by my handicapping opinion on the particular race.

I have used this strategy for over two years now...and I have never been able to profit with it. But I am not losing with it either. In the long run -- using the handicapping methods that I use -- this betting strategy allows me to stay even with the game...without suffering the long losing streaks that would plague me if I were betting on a single horse to win.

This strategy does not present me with a mathematical advantage on the game...but it allows me to call myself a professional horseplayer.

Why?

Because I get an 8% rebate on my action...and I bet enough to make that rebate amount to an average of about $360 a day. This strategy alone allows me to make a pretty good living from this game...without taking into account any extra betting that I may do.

That's why I said that you can make a living through the rebates without really being what is normally considered an "advantage player".

[pele polo]

We've gotten off topic so I don't mind and this "professional" horse player thing comes up once a month so...

Many years ago at a track in Mexico I saw an American man who some people may refer to as looking like a deranged vagabond. I highly doubt he was I'm just describing his appearance. Anyhow, he carried with him a stack of programs, maybe a months worth and when I spotted him he was nervously watching " training races". Every inch of this man screamed out... "I'm going to panic at any moment."

I was young and incredibly intrigued. I wanted to ask him questions. The first that came out was, " So, are you a pro?"

I'll never forget the look he gave me. Have you ever walked in on someone undressing or anyone who thought they had the room to themselves only to be barged in on? That's the look I got even though there were several hundred people on the same floor. Either he was oblivious to others around him or wasn't accustomed to people trying to talk to him.

He response was, "Nobody's a pro" and quickly turned back to the training races and scribbling notes on the stack of old programs.

I don't remember what other questions I asked him as it was all very fleeting, but I do remember him telling me he wasn't betting, that actual day at least.

I saw this man one other time at the track. He was a middle aged, slightly overweight and balding and had a total disregard for impressing anyone with his style of clothing, mannerisms, etc. He was in his own world, not schizophrenically, but close. And on the second night I saw him he was with a woman, older than he and I wouldn't have been surprised if it was his mother, but whatever. I do know he was betting on that night as his pace had quickened, his glare at the track even more stone cold than the previous "training race" observations, and in the corner of his mouth you could faintly see a sly grin or smirk and it remained there as long as I saw him. His face and eyes were still serious. I don't know if that grin meant he was winning or if he was simply in the zone of degeneracy.

Whether he was a pro or not I don't know. There was nothing about him that totally turned me off about the guy, like I said I was intrigued the first time I saw him. The last words he told me on the day we "met" were:

"And I know what we're you're thinking, forget about it."

And I knew it exactly what he meant... Me trying to become a "pro", if there was any thought there.



I think it should be noted that I've come across and/or met people like him before as a child at the races and later on life as a full grown adult with children but for whatever reason he always stick out in my mind.

To this day I know, personally, three professional pari mutuel gamblers, as in the type that have no other job but playing races. One of those three plays dogs extensively. Each has his own character, backgrounds, and stature of living. And each of them make a salary if you will, that equates to close to the poverty level. $15-30k a year if I was to speculate. But I think it's an educated guess nonetheless. I've been to tracks all the country and have been involved in racing in some capacity since I was very young and have met many people who claim they are actually real professional horseplayers but beyond those three I've declined to believe them.


The Internet has changed our lives and gambling profoundly. I'm sure there are many stay at home gamblers that we all will never meet who make a living betting races and it could be a small living or a house in the hills type of living.

My point is this... I think there are many here who should:
A.) Stop kidding themselves or us
B.) Try it so you appreciate your actual living
C.) "Forget about it"

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by pele polo

We've gotten off topic so I don't mind and this "professional" horse player thing comes up once a month so...

Many years ago at a track in Mexico I saw an American man who some people may refer to as looking like a deranged vagabond. I highly doubt he was I'm just describing his appearance. Anyhow, he carried with him a stack of programs, maybe a months worth and when I spotted him he was nervously watching " training races". Every inch of this man screamed out... "I'm going to panic at any moment."

I was young and incredibly intrigued. I wanted to ask him questions. The first that came out was, " So, are you a pro?"

I'll never forget the look he gave me. Have you ever walked in on someone undressing or anyone who thought they had the room to themselves only to be barged in on? That's the look I got even though there were several hundred people on the same floor. Either he was oblivious to others around him or wasn't accustomed to people trying to talk to him.

He response was, "Nobody's a pro" and quickly turned back to the training races and scribbling notes on the stack of old programs.

I don't remember what other questions I asked him as it was all very fleeting, but I do remember him telling me he wasn't betting, that actual day at least.

I saw this man one other time at the track. He was a middle aged, slightly overweight and balding and had a total disregard for impressing anyone with his style of clothing, mannerisms, etc. He was in his own world, not schizophrenically, but close. And on the second night I saw him he was with a woman, older than he and I wouldn't have been surprised if it was his mother, but whatever. I do know he was betting on that night as his pace had quickened, his glare at the track even more stone cold than the previous "training race" observations, and in the corner of his mouth you could faintly see a sly grin or smirk and it remained there as long as I saw him. His face and eyes were still serious. I don't know if that grin meant he was winning or if he was simply in the zone of degeneracy.

Whether he was a pro or not I don't know. There was nothing about him that totally turned me off about the guy, like I said I was intrigued the first time I saw him. The last words he told me on the day we "met" were:

"And I know what we're you're thinking, forget about it."

And I knew it exactly what he meant... Me trying to become a "pro", if there was any thought there.



I think it should be noted that I've come across and/or met people like him before as a child at the races and later on life as a full grown adult with children but for whatever reason he always stick out in my mind.

To this day I know, personally, three professional pari mutuel gamblers, as in the type that have no other job but playing races. One of those three plays dogs extensively. Each has his own character, backgrounds, and stature of living. And each of them make a salary if you will, that equates to close to the poverty level. $15-30k a year if I was to speculate. But I think it's an educated guess nonetheless. I've been to tracks all the country and have been involved in racing in some capacity since I was very young and have met many people who claim they are actually real professional horseplayers but beyond those three I've declined to believe them.


The Internet has changed our lives and gambling profoundly. I'm sure there are many stay at home gamblers that we all will never meet who make a living betting races and it could be a small living or a house in the hills type of living.

My point is this... I think there are many here who should:
A.) Stop kidding themselves or us
B.) Try it so you appreciate your actual living
C.) "Forget about it"

nice post

[raybo]

Definition of PROFESSIONAL

1
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b : engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3
: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>

Common terms: "for gain or livelihood"; "permanent career"; "receiving financial return".

I would add "long term" to all of those.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

for me, i have to churn between 50-100K /month

Realistic.....

Quarter of a million if you have a really good year.

[appistappis]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

This happens because it is a matter of definition and does exist a correct answer. It is a subjective question that can be answered by various ways.

Right on the money, as in most topics on handicapping, there are various ways to skin the cat.