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View Poll Results: What is your opinion of the Bill as currently written?
I am for the bill as currently written. 21 42.00%
I am against the bill as currently written. 19 38.00%
The bill needs some changes for me to support it. 13 26.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 50. This poll is closed

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Old 06-04-2011, 11:40 PM   #46
Kelso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon shell
Acting as though thoroughbred racehorses shouldn't benefit from modern medicine is laughable.

<SNIP>

Again the idea that there is some huge crowd of gamblers waiting for the sport to get rid of the L in the program before they dive back in is crazy.
There ya go again ... inventing straw-men arguments that nobody but you has brought up. Neither Lambo nor anyone else has suggested that "racehorses shouldn't benefit from modern medicine." What HAS been stated is that horses shouldn't race while on medication.

Nobody suggested that any gamblers are waiting for the elimination of Lasix before they start betting more (or again), either. You drug-happy trainers are but one of the many unnecessary aspects of the current game that are destroying it.

Stop putting words into other people's posts. You're already having a difficult enough time making any sense with your own.
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:45 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Kelso
Stop putting words into other people's posts. You're already having a difficult enough time making any sense with your own.
The irony here is pretty funny.

Lumping all trainers together as "drug happy" really does wonders for your arguement. You're going after the wrong people and as usual are misguided in your anger.

The same people in this thread talking about how evil lasix is have their horses running on it. Does that make sense to you?
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:31 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dahoss9698
Lumping all trainers together as "drug happy" really does wonders for your arguement.
Cannon Shell's sorry habit of intentionally mischaracterizing other people's statements appears to now be contagious. With your post, you clearly reveal yourself to be suffering from it.

I criticized "drug-happy trainers." I did NOT say anything AT ALL about "all trainers."

It's long past due that you started getting your facts straight, hoss. A better understanding of basic English grammar might, in that regard, be of great assistance to you.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:01 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Kelso
Cannon Shell's sorry habit of intentionally mischaracterizing other people's statements appears to now be contagious. With your post, you clearly reveal yourself to be suffering from it.

I criticized "drug-happy trainers." I did NOT say anything AT ALL about "all trainers."

It's long past due that you started getting your facts straight, hoss. A better understanding of basic English grammar might, in that regard, be of great assistance to you.
You characterized him as a drug happy trainer. You're wrong, as usual. Own it.

Wise of you to avoid the other stuff. But it should be addressed. The same owners here criticizing lasix run their horses on it. Pretend you're consistent and get after them. Or at least pretend you're more than a internet loudmouth and get YOUR facts straight.

Last edited by Dahoss9698; 06-05-2011 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:10 AM   #50
Cannon shell
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Originally Posted by cj
Cannon, has Lasix has been used as a masking agent? I'm no expert here, but that argument is used often. What do you say?
Probably in the 70's and 80's. They now test at a trillionth of a gram level. The testing is so much more sophisticated now than just 15 years ago. I have spoken to Dr Tobin and Dr Barker from LSU numerous times about the subject. The fact is CJ that I would be much more worried about guys using altered drugs that wont be caught by testing or newer things than masking.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Kelso
Not logical at all; simply self-serving. The politicians will tax the least potent voting group. That's you, horseman.

Your self-delusive "logical assumption" remains nothing other than a scare tactic ... and you failed miserably with it.
Do you seriously think that Udall or Whitfield are worried about this issue costing them votes? LOL! Do you really think this is about their desire to "help" horseracing?

Yeah the horseplayer voting caucus is a big player at the polls in Western KY and New Mexico

Face it there will be no sentiment for people who bet on horses from politicians. None. Zero.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:24 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Kelso
There ya go again ... inventing straw-men arguments that nobody but you has brought up. Neither Lambo nor anyone else has suggested that "racehorses shouldn't benefit from modern medicine." What HAS been stated is that horses shouldn't race while on medication.

Nobody suggested that any gamblers are waiting for the elimination of Lasix before they start betting more (or again), either. You drug-happy trainers are but one of the many unnecessary aspects of the current game that are destroying it.

Stop putting words into other people's posts. You're already having a difficult enough time making any sense with your own.
When you understand the issue maybe you will be able to post more intellegently.

By effectively banning everything with no timetable given for withdrawals you are basically saying that you cant give anything to horse at anytime and feel safe. So how exactly can you treat a horses physical issues and feel safe about running them? Or are you another of the belief that horses are impervious to all sickness?

Your vindictiveness is telling.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Kelso
Cannon Shell's sorry habit of intentionally mischaracterizing other people's statements appears to now be contagious. With your post, you clearly reveal yourself to be suffering from it.

I criticized "drug-happy trainers." I did NOT say anything AT ALL about "all trainers."

It's long past due that you started getting your facts straight, hoss. A better understanding of basic English grammar might, in that regard, be of great assistance to you.
I suppose that you can tell the difference between a "drug happy" trainer and a "non-drug happy trainer"?

You won't even listen to one trying to tell you the truth.

But hey suit yourself. Keep believing your own little delusions that life was wonderful back in the 60's when all the drug use was covered up.
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Old 06-05-2011, 09:56 AM   #54
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One thing is right, the gamblers are not behind this bill and we all know that. This bill is being pushed by the animal rights groups. The fact that it will also benefit horse players is incidental, but a good thing.
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Old 06-05-2011, 10:34 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Robert Goren
As usual, it is not to hard to tell which posters are horsemen and which ones only bet on the horses.
Can you be both? I guess when the owners and trainers and jocks agents and anyone else associated with horses goes up to the windows they are probably just asking where the closest rest room is!
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:04 AM   #56
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Can you be both? I guess when the owners and trainers and jocks agents and anyone else associated with horses goes up to the windows they are probably just asking where the closest rest room is!
Owners, trainers etc who bet often have very different opinions on how to run the sport than those people bet only. When I see those gambling horse people as group start fighting for things that non horsepeople bettors consider important, in the case drugs, then I will know we have made progress. The problem is that the gambling horse people still get most of their income from the horse end of the sport and will come down on the horse people side of any disagreement with the non horse people bettors. Case in point, I don't know of any non horse person bettor who doesn't want to get rid of Lasix, yet even betting horse people want to keep it. When you show me that you actually agree with non horse person bettors on something that they want, but horse people don't, then I will believe that you are not nothing more than a shill for the horse people. Why would any bettor who is not also a horse person want a horse running on any drugs?
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Old 06-05-2011, 11:52 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Robert Goren
Owners, trainers etc who bet often have very different opinions on how to run the sport than those people bet only. When I see those gambling horse people as group start fighting for things that non horsepeople bettors consider important, in the case drugs, then I will know we have made progress. The problem is that the gambling horse people still get most of their income from the horse end of the sport and will come down on the horse people side of any disagreement with the non horse people bettors. Case in point, I don't know of any non horse person bettor who doesn't want to get rid of Lasix, yet even betting horse people want to keep it. When you show me that you actually agree with non horse person bettors on something that they want, but horse people don't, then I will believe that you are not nothing more than a shill for the horse people. Why would any bettor who is not also a horse person want a horse running on any drugs?
A lesson in equine physiology: the biological reasons for bleeding

The thoroughbred racehorse has been highly optimized over hundreds of years of breeding to be an extremely efficient runner. Why, then, do so many of the species suffer from bleeding in the lungs under the stress of running? The answer to this question requires a peek inside the horse; understanding the configuration of the horse's internal organs shows why some bleeding is inevitable during a race.

The technical name for "bleeding" is exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage (EIPH). This describes a condition in which the tiny blood vessels in a horse's lungs rupture due to stress sustained during physical exertion. EIPH occurs in three variations. Simple EIPH is an acute condition resulting from the strain of exercise. Patent pulmonary hemorrhage (PPH) involves bleeding in the lungs as a reaction to an allergen, infection, or due to hypertension. Some horses experience composite bleeding, which is the result of the combined effects of simple EIPH and PPH. PPH is a chronic condition which must be treated with various medications. The effects of simple EIPH heal naturally over the course of several days.

Simple EIPH occurs as the natural consequence of strenuous running due to the layout of the horse's organs and the way the equine body moves during high-speed galloping. The horse's body is divided into two halves. The front end of the horse's trunk contains the heart, lungs, and other major organs. The back half of the horse contains the intestines, which are suspended within the abdomen by ligaments. The two halves are divided by a thin sheet of muscle called the diaphragm.

When the diaphragm contracts, the effect is to increase the volume of the horse's front half, the chest cavity. This increased volume draws air into the lungs. When running, this movement is synchronized such that the horse inhales when his front feet hit the ground and his skeletal structure is stretched to its maximum length. When the horse's front feet leave the ground, the skeletal structure is compressed and the diaphragm relaxes. The constricting chest cavity forces air out of the lungs, and the horse exhales.

Due to the back-and-forth motion of galloping, the horse's intestines swing like a pendulum at the end of the suspensory ligaments. When running at full speed, especially in the fastest sprint races, the movement of the intestines can get out of phase with the movement of the diaphragm in such a way that the intestinal mass is swinging forward as the horse is trying to exhale. This causes the diaphragm to be slammed forward and slightly upward. The diaphragm, in turn, squeezes part of the lungs against the chest wall.

The lungs are filled with alveoli, tiny air sacs, and capillaries, miniscule blood vessels. The alveoli and capillaries are so fine and so interconnected that oxygen from the inhaled air can pass into the bloodstream, and carbon dioxide in the blood can pass out of the blood into the lungs to be exhaled. The capillaries are at their smallest and most efficient near the rear, tapered end of the lungs where they abut the diaphragm.

It is exactly these most efficient, extremely fine capillaries which are repeatedly impacted by the forward-surging intestinal mass. As they rupture under the stress, the horse's air passages become clogged with blood. Obviously, this causes difficulty in breathing which causes difficulty in running.

Some studies suggest that airborn debris, such as dust and pollen, play a role in EIPH. Increased fluid and mucous or inflammation due to these irritants obstruct the horse's airways and require even harder breathing during a race.

Once EIPH starts in a horse, it tends to be a lifelong problem.

The role of Lasix

The medication Furosemide, sold under the trade name, "Lasix", is a powerful diuretic that causes fluids locked up in the horse's body tissues to be released and expelled in the urine. This has the effect of lowering the horse's blood pressure, particularly in the aorta and pulmonary artery. The lower blood pressure in the capillaries mitigates the problem of EIPH; thus, the horse's performance returns to a normal level. Lasix is treatment of choice for EIPH, though study results of its effectiveness vary.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefast99
A lesson in equine physiology: the biological reasons for bleeding



Simple EIPH occurs as the natural consequence of strenuous running due to the layout of the horse's organs and the way the equine body moves during high-speed galloping. The horse's body is divided into two halves. The front end of the horse's trunk contains the heart, lungs, and other major organs. The back half of the horse contains the intestines, which are suspended within the abdomen by ligaments. The two halves are divided by a thin sheet of muscle called the diaphragm.

When the diaphragm contracts, the effect is to increase the volume of the horse's front half, the chest cavity. This increased volume draws air into the lungs. When running, this movement is synchronized such that the horse inhales when his front feet hit the ground and his skeletal structure is stretched to its maximum length. When the horse's front feet leave the ground, the skeletal structure is compressed and the diaphragm relaxes. The constricting chest cavity forces air out of the lungs, and the horse exhales.

Due to the back-and-forth motion of galloping, the horse's intestines swing like a pendulum at the end of the suspensory ligaments. When running at full speed, especially in the fastest sprint races, the movement of the intestines can get out of phase with the movement of the diaphragm in such a way that the intestinal mass is swinging forward as the horse is trying to exhale. This causes the diaphragm to be slammed forward and slightly upward. The diaphragm, in turn, squeezes part of the lungs against the chest wall.



Once EIPH starts in a horse, it tends to be a lifelong problem.
Imagine what happens in this scenario to a horse that has bled before and built up scar tissue in the lung as a consequence, making the lungs less flexible and more prone to tear under the stress of expansion and contraction.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:19 PM   #59
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You can put all the stuff you want about what Lasix does or doesn't do. There is no way that it is needed by almost every horse that starts in this country. There is a reason for that they used it that widely and I have not seen any reason to believe that it is medical. As I a bettor and like most bettors I think it should be banned.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:43 PM   #60
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If lasix is not a performance-enhancing drug...why are horseplayers so concerned about these "first-time"...and "second-time" lasix horses?
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