Religion III

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Religion is based on "faith"...we all know that. But science often relies on "faith" too, even though the scientists don't often admit it. When the physicists determine that some planets in our universe lack the necessary mass to account for the needed gravitational pull to keep the planets in their assigned orbit, they just assume that there must be some more mass out there that can't be seen...and they call this "dark matter". Isn't this the same sort of "faith" that religion uses when it creates speculative theories to support certain religious positions?

It's not the same. You might try reading Astrophysics for People in a Hurry by Neil deGrasse Tyson.

And of course science has peer-review (which religion does not). And in the end should the prevailing view need revision such a revision must satisfy the correspondence principle, ergo, Einstein does not overthrow Newton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_principle

[Corey]

Wisdom comes from a fear of God, not from science, there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom, I’ve yet to meet a secular person that has wisdom. Wisdom comes from those who believe in the Bible as opposed to those who believe in The NY Times.

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by Actor

.......It's easy to make such a claim when supposed eyewitnesses are long dead and cannot be cross examined.

so what. Do you bring that up when you talk about Julius Ceasar or Napoleon?
You don't trust ancient texts. Really. How about the Roman Empire ? Do you believe it existed ? Should we abolish all studies of ancient history ?

No evidence at all suggests the Gospels were made up.
Again, the standard is in comparison to other historical writings.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Corey

Wisdom comes from a fear of God, not from science, there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom, I’ve yet to meet a secular person that has wisdom. Wisdom comes from those who believe in the Bible as opposed to those who believe in The NY Times.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Corey

Wisdom comes from a fear of God, not from science, there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom, I’ve yet to meet a secular person that has wisdom. Wisdom comes from those who believe in the Bible as opposed to those who believe in The NY Times.

Welcome, Corey. You are exactly what has been missing from here.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Welcome, Corey. You are exactly what has been missing from here.

I second that motion!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by porchy44

so what. Do you bring that up when you talk about Julius Ceasarsic or Napoleon?

I've covered that before, but ...

Starting with Napoleon since he is the most recent, living after the invention of the printing press. There are mountains of printed material about Napoleon's career which can be scientifically dated.

There are also records of Caesar from multitudes of writers who were contemporaries of Caesar, e.g., Cicero & Casca. These have been dated.

Alexander the Great exists not only in Greek records, but in Persian and Egyptian records.

Originally Posted by porchy44

You don't trust ancient texts. Really. How about the Roman Empire ? Do you believe it existed ? Should we abolish all studies of ancient history?

The problem with the gospels is the scarcity of evidence. As I pointed out the claim that they were written in the first century is questionable.

There are a multitude of non-Abrahamic religions in the world, all with their own holy book, all with the same questions about authorship and dates. Are you willing to extend to these the same weak standards you extend to the gospels?

Then there is the outrageous claim of the resurrection. As Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The resurrection is as extraordinary as you can get but any so-called evidence for it is far from extraordinary.

And there was a time when dying and rising gods were in vogue. What makes Jesus (actually Joshua ben Joseph) different?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Corey

Wisdom comes from a fear of God, not from science, there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom, I’ve yet to meet a secular person that has wisdom. Wisdom comes from those who believe in the Bible as opposed to those who believe in The NY Times.

Define wisdom.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

Define wisdom.

See Boxcar and Corey.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

See Boxcar and Corey.

Better yet, see Jesus and learn from him; for He is the wisdom of God.

P.S. But thanks the kind remarks. I'm flattered.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

See Boxcar and Corey.

I'd like to know what definition Corey is using.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Better yet, see Jesus and learn from him; for He is the wisdom of God.

P.S. But thanks the kind remarks. I'm flattered.

You may not believe me...but I give you a lot of credit for the steadfastness of your religious beliefs. You are the only Christian that I've ever met who doesn't waver when someone asks if God really allows all the calamities to befall upon our world. The other Christians absolve God of all responsibility for these natural or unnatural disasters...and they are quick to blame "man", or some other "satanic force". But you stand right up and declare that nothing happens upon this earth without God wanting it to happen. And this earns my sincere respect.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You may not believe me...but I give you a lot of credit for the steadfastness of your religious beliefs. You are the only Christian that I've ever met who doesn't waver when someone asks if God really allows all the calamities to befall upon our world. The other Christians absolve God of all responsibility for these natural or unnatural disasters...and they are quick to blame "man", or some other "satanic force". But you stand right up and declare that nothing happens upon this earth without God wanting it to happen. And this earns my sincere respect.

Well...that's not entirely true what you just stated. Scripture teaches that there is the decretive will of God whereby he actually decrees what is to come to past. The Creation is a great example of this..."and God said let there be..". Or when God decreed the two great exiles of the ancient Israelites as punishment due to their unfaithfulness in keeping the covenant God made them. And then there is the permissive will of God whereby God allows or permits evil to happen to serve a higher purpose. Scripture abounds with examples of this, such as the horrible calamities Satan brought upon Job, or Satan being allowed to sift Peter as wheat, or Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers in the OT, etc.

So...the bottom line is that nothing and I mean absolutely nothing occurs in this world apart from the sovereign will of God -- including such seemingly mundane things as a sparrow falling to the ground. Yet, in all these things, God is without sin! Even when he allows seemingly innocent people to become victims of evil, he is just because all human beings are sinners and none are worthy of his grace or mercy.

[dnlgfnk]

And of course before Boxcar there was Ignatius of Antioch, and Augustine, and John Damascene, and Aquinas, and...

https://books.google.com/books?id=oB...20will&f=false

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Welcome, Corey. You are exactly what has been missing from here.