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Old 05-01-2023, 02:54 PM   #1
Aerocraft67
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Derby post draw, ML

Hot take:

For those potentially seeking the front, Derma Sotogake and
Rocket Can probably compromised, Confidence Game and Reincarnate enhanced.

Forte is out there, maybe not an issue, but maybe another little knock on the favorite?

Verifying, Two Phil's, Tapit Trice, Kingsbarns Mage seem to have fared well in the draw.

Biggest ML surprise for me is Jace's Road at 15-1 (?!)

Reincarnate 50-1 seems too big. I'd swap it for Rocket Can at 30-1.
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Old 05-01-2023, 02:59 PM   #2
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Love the post for Derma Sotogake. After last year's disaster I just know that Lemaire was not going to send hard again. I was scared with an inside post he would be swallowed up by the pack. Now he can be up close and in the clear.

I also agree that Mage has a good spot. If he breaks he can secure a nice spot in the clear outside of the speed.
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Old 05-01-2023, 03:07 PM   #3
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Second thoughts about Verifying drawing well. Maybe not poorly, but there's an awful lot of early pace just to his outside. Four out of five of them have the highest early pace ratings in the rest of the field.

He'll have to work not to get shuffled back, but if he can, and he should be able to, he'll save ground doing it.
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Old 05-01-2023, 03:11 PM   #4
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Hit Show 30-1
Verifying 15-1
Two Phil's 12-1
Confidence Game 20-1
Tapit Trice 5-1
Kingsbarns 12-1
Reincarnate 50-1
Mage 15-1
Skinner 20-1
Practical Move 10-1
Disarm 30-1
Jace's Road 15-1
Sun Thunder 50-1
Angel of Empire 8-1
Forte 3-1
Raise Cain 50-1
Derma Sotogake 10-1
Rocket Can 30-1
Lord Miles 30-1
Continuar 50-1

Initial thoughts: Verifying gets a dream draw pulling the hole while the potential Japan speed is way outside. Tapit and Kings get sneaky good draws for what I expect will be more forwardly placed rides. Angel in the and Forte in the have been troublesome posts in recent years but it's otherwise a fair spot for those styles. Will be interesting to see what Practical Move does from the hole. He probably goes early but this is the first time he's in a real crowd. Hit Show gets the dreaded rail made worse by his pressing running style and serious speed next to him. The horse doesn't lack early foot but has more of a pressing style. Tough call what that one does but probably needs to move early.

The Pletcher trio plus Verifying would be my somewhat unoriginal gut box play at the moment.
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Old 05-01-2023, 05:17 PM   #5
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Top 3 morning line odds
Tapit Trice 5-1
Angel of Empire 8-1
Forte 3-1

Fair Odds (mine)
Tapit Trice 6-1
Angel of Empire 8-1
Forte 2-1

I will post an update on the entire fields odds as well as have an analysis of my Top 4 picks this weekend
Those 3 above will probably change the odds but I still like Forte at 2-1 even at 3-1 is ok
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Old 05-01-2023, 05:20 PM   #6
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Appears there might have been a mistake in the odds the derby twitter account posted.
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Old 05-01-2023, 05:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckMark View Post
Top 3 morning line odds
Tapit Trice 5-1
Angel of Empire 8-1
Forte 3-1

Fair Odds (mine)
Tapit Trice 6-1
Angel of Empire 8-1
Forte 2-1

I will post an update on the entire fields odds as well as have an analysis of my Top 4 picks this weekend
Those 3 above will probably change the odds but I still like Forte at 2-1 even at 3-1 is ok
Conley, what do you mean by "Fair Odds"

It's just a pet peeve of mine... usage of the term just makes things clear as mud.

Ed Derosa on horse racing nation uses the term "fair odds" for his betting line. I would call it a value line.

Tapit Trice's fair odds would be 9/2 and my betting line or value line would be 6/1. Something like $4.35 cents is Tapit Trice's break even rate imo....which is his fair odds.
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Old 05-01-2023, 05:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Conley, what do you mean by "Fair Odds"

It's just a pet peeve of mine... usage of the term just makes things clear as mud.

Ed Derosa on horse racing nation uses the term "fair odds" for his betting line. I would call it a value line.

Tapit Trice's fair odds would be 9/2 and my betting line or value line would be 6/1. Something like $4.35 cents is Tapit Trice's break even rate imo....which is his fair odds.
Value Line=Fair Odds

I think there is a product out there called “Value Line” so I just use the term Fair Odds for my own odds line

I'm not the best at it but I try my best
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Last edited by CheckMark; 05-01-2023 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 05-01-2023, 06:18 PM   #9
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Five of the top early pace runners are in seven gates, 2–8. Two more are banished to posts 17 & 18.

Hit Show is not one of them. He's pressed from fifth about two lengths back in his last three races. Best I can say about the post is that maybe he slides into decent mid-pack position behind Two Phil's and saves ground. That puts him with Tapit Trice, who actually has similar TFUS pace ratings. Maybe still not a toss at 30-1.

Kind of sink or swim for Verifying, but he should swim. I doubt Two Phil's sends harder between him and Confidence Game, but not like he's going to take back, either. The two "speeds" either side of him could usher him into good position. I figure is the most likely leader, and still good for one of my keys at 20-1. Prefer over but not dead set against him.

No excuse for Tapit Trice in terms of post draw, although he is sandwiched by early pace on either side. Maybe he can glide in just behind them for a good position as a late stalker or near the front of mid-pack. You can say much the same for Kingsbarns next to him, probably a bit more forward. They seem fair-ish at ML, but 5-1 is pretty dear for anyone in here.

Mage is farthest outside of the early runners, not that the 8th is all that far, or that Mage is a die-hard speed. Assuming he breaks, maybe he tracks close to Reincarnate, if that one sends, for a prime stalking position. I like both of these at their respective ML, and would be surprised to see actually go as high as 50-1.

Assuming Skinner is indifferent to the post (still waiting for TFUS to update with his PPs), we have Practical Move. Some say he's primarily benefited from very favorable inside trips, which probably isn't in the cards from the 10-hole. Probably not molested by Disarm to his outside, not that he wants to be left behind, and then Jace's Road would seem to have to send desperately, even though that one ranks maybe 10th for early pace (still can't believe that critter is 15-1 on the ML). I was talking myself into , now drifting back against him, tied for 4th on the ML.

Another indifferent post for Sun Thunder, who looks to plod near last (and probably finish there). Less sure about Angel of Empire. It shouldn't be compromised from there with penultimate early pace, but others with more interest early can match its late run. Kind of needs the field to sort itself out favorably inside. I'll play against that at 8-1 third choice.

Which brings us to the favorite, Forte. Good news is, the field might sort itself out inside without posing much trouble if he keeps a decent pace. The bad news is, there are 14 horses to the inside, and another couple outside that wish they weren't. Just seems like a precarious position, and another chink in the armor of the favorite worth a play against at 3-1.

Nothing more to say about tossable Raise Cain, but Derma Sotogake and Rocket Can look to have disappointing posts for runners that would do well to get involved early. Maybe that deflects money from , who retains the speed to salvage a position and the stamina to finish. He's never been this wide, but he has faced bigger fields than most. If he drifts up from 10-1, fifth choice, I'm keen on him. I couldn't see Rocket Can before the post draw, and I definitely can't now, although I know some guys were making a case for him among the long shots.

Finally, Lord Miles and Continuar are probably not particularly compromised by their uninspiring posts. I did like the former for a possible piece at a huge price, not sure that changes much. Maybe the latter outruns his odds, but only because they'll be so high, inflated just a bit more by the post (but deflated by being highest and hopes for a repeat of last year's upset). Don't think I can fit him in even the most generous swing.

Last edited by Aerocraft67; 05-01-2023 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 05-01-2023, 06:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
Conley, what do you mean by "Fair Odds"

It's just a pet peeve of mine... usage of the term just makes things clear as mud.

Ed Derosa on horse racing nation uses the term "fair odds" for his betting line. I would call it a value line.

Tapit Trice's fair odds would be 9/2 and my betting line or value line would be 6/1. Something like $4.35 cents is Tapit Trice's break even rate imo....which is his fair odds.
And what happens when a furniture baron pumps millions into the win pool on one horse? Plus CAW's putting in millions at the last second?
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Old 05-01-2023, 06:32 PM   #11
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And what happens when a furniture baron pumps millions into the win pool on one horse? Plus CAW's putting in millions at the last second?
mac is on Forte lol bet millions to drive the price down
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Old 05-01-2023, 06:45 PM   #12
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the rail post

Did they do something somewhat recently where it gave the rail post (post position #1) a little more room?

thank you
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Old 05-01-2023, 06:53 PM   #13
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And what happens when a furniture baron pumps millions into the win pool on one horse? Plus CAW's putting in millions at the last second?
I more or less just wanted to clarify what Conley meant when he uses the term fair odds. It's his betting line... a coin has 50/50 fair odds. There's a difference. You can't just say words was my point. He's free to use whatever words he wants... I just wanted to know what he meant.

As for what happens... the only tactic players have is to demand higher premiums. We simply can't defend against the late betting caw teams. That's why it's not a pari-mutual game anymore. As for MAC... he tells us who he's betting on.

Otherwise.... I'm personally not afraid of caw teams. I just bet less races and choose where to attack. They have weaknesses (I'm not going to air them in public) and unlike most players I'm battle tested. They're not taking my money. The game is just much worse for everyone because of the rebates and late betting.

I also only play NY... so my win bets get through.
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Old 05-01-2023, 07:00 PM   #14
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My personal feelings toward the CAW.

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Old 05-01-2023, 07:22 PM   #15
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Did they do something somewhat recently where it gave the rail post (post position #1) a little more room?

thank you
Yes I believe they were talking about that or rail post today on the Post Position draw that the current starting gate (1 full starting gate) has a bit more room to run out vs the older starting gate where they had the "gap" starting gate with the 1-14 then 15-20 gate

Hope that makes sense Robert
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