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Old 06-22-2016, 11:56 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Fager Fan
It'd obviously enhance the performance of those who bleed, so that alone makes it performance enhancing. Regarding the water loss advantage, my understanding is that old timers figured out how to lose the water without giving lasix. I don't know what those means we're though, of the accuracy of the "they did this back in the day" arguments.
Some trainers, those who don't like to, or can't, use Lasix on race day, will "draw" or withhold water in the morning. But really, how much of an advantage is the reduction of 10 -20 pounds of water weight in a 1000 pound animal, either way? The real advantage of Lasix, IMO, is the reduction of blood in the respiratory system. if the horse has blood in its airways there can be negative health issues, and their performance can suffer. I'm not crazy about using a diuretic, but if it is effective in reducing or preventing bleeding, and nothing else works, then I'm all for it, if the horse is otherwise race sound.
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Old 06-23-2016, 04:02 PM   #137
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I've said this before and I'll say it again then I'm done on this for now. We are injecting 95% of the horses before they race with a drug. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at this objectively and think it is a good thing. I realize some horses need it to race but most don't. To me it seems silly we'd rather drug the vast majority of horses than lose the ones that can't compete.

My best solution would be to give horses using Lasix a significant weight penalty. It isn't my idea. I read it first when written by Jerry Brown of Thorograph. I feel most horsemen would prefer to not use Lasix if given the choice and a level playing field. The game is never going to be looked upon favorably outside the core group that follows it now when most participants are drugged.
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Old 06-23-2016, 04:24 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by raybo
Some trainers, those who don't like to, or can't, use Lasix on race day, will "draw" or withhold water in the morning. But really, how much of an advantage is the reduction of 10 -20 pounds of water weight in a 1000 pound animal, either way? The real advantage of Lasix, IMO, is the reduction of blood in the respiratory system. if the horse has blood in its airways there can be negative health issues, and their performance can suffer. I'm not crazy about using a diuretic, but if it is effective in reducing or preventing bleeding, and nothing else works, then I'm all for it, if the horse is otherwise race sound.
I read an article once that bleeding to the point of affecting a horse's ability to perform was relatively small/rare, even for known bleeders.
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Old 06-23-2016, 06:00 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by tucker6
I read an article once that bleeding to the point of affecting a horse's ability to perform was relatively small/rare, even for known bleeders.
As I said earlier, the only times I consider Lasix at all, are when there is a change made, either 1st time Lasix after having raced without it for a period of time.

Or, when a horse is taken off Lasix, after having raced with it for a period of time.

And regarding the former, the horse's last race or two must have shown significant "need" for the drug, meaning the horse faded badly late, all other things being equal. Lasix introduction, under those conditions, often produces an improved performance.

However, nowadays, very nearly every horse in American racing gets Lasix from the get-go, and continues getting it forever, so Lasix is of, very nearly, no concern in my handicapping, at all.
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Old 06-23-2016, 10:41 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by raybo
Some trainers, those who don't like to, or can't, use Lasix on race day, will "draw" or withhold water in the morning. But really, how much of an advantage is the reduction of 10 -20 pounds of water weight in a 1000 pound animal, either way? The real advantage of Lasix, IMO, is the reduction of blood in the respiratory system. if the horse has blood in its airways there can be negative health issues, and their performance can suffer. I'm not crazy about using a diuretic, but if it is effective in reducing or preventing bleeding, and nothing else works, then I'm all for it, if the horse is otherwise race sound.
The theory that Lasix prevents bleeding has never been proven in any study. In fact the only study done has shown it does not. To allow the use of any drug without proper testing is obscene. Would you take any drug that has not undergone proper testing? Do horses not deserve similar protection?
It causes calcium and magnesium to be leeched from the bones and supplemental calcium feeding is not enough to replace these essential minerals since the body cannot absorb enough calcium to replace that sweated and urinated out.
Yes, it is probably performance enhancing but this flies in the face of equine physiology except for the fact that it masks the presence of other illegal drugs by diluting the urine.
Lasix was first introduced by racing commissions, based on mere untested speculation, and thinking that it would stop declining field sizes. In fact it has had the opposite effect with average field sizes decreasing since it's legalization.
Europe, and the rest of the world, where Lasix is banned do not have any more of a bleeding problem than the U.S where it is used universally.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:01 AM   #141
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A lot of anger and solid points regarding Lasix in this thread.

So, my question is, will anything ever be done about it?

I mean, it wouldn't be really difficult to do a real study regarding Lasix in horse racing in the U.S.. Right?

I've seen posts here and there regarding possible "No Lasix" races, and even some tracks possibly hinting at such. Any reason why this hasn't/doesn't happen?
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:31 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker
A lot of anger and solid points regarding Lasix in this thread.

So, my question is, will anything ever be done about it?

I mean, it wouldn't be really difficult to do a real study regarding Lasix in horse racing in the U.S.. Right?

I've seen posts here and there regarding possible "No Lasix" races, and even some tracks possibly hinting at such. Any reason why this hasn't/doesn't happen?
It actually did happen at Churchill I believe.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:36 PM   #143
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It actually did happen at Churchill I believe.
Yes, and I believe other commissions are moving towards phasing out Lasix use in response to a decline in racing due to the public perception that racing results are drug fueled.
This and a slap on the wrist attitude towards many drugging trainers is destroying racing and hopefully the powers that be will take stronger action before the sport suffers irreparable damage.
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Old 06-24-2016, 03:33 PM   #144
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To me, the lasix issue is pretty much a nothingburger in terms of impacting the horse population negatively.

Sure, there are purists who consider any unnatural substance to be the end of the world. Just like vegetarians and meat, and all that jazz. But their claims strike me as mostly exaggeration and hyperventilation.

Believe it or not, people like me have consciences about animal treatment. But, speaking for myself, being reasonable is part of the equation.

For instance, why do human triathletes who punish their bodies beyond normal limits, dehydration and exhaustion and all, escape the criticism that clobbers horse trainers for brief Thoroughbred water loss via lasix? The latter is nearly benign, compared to the former. And don't give me the baloney about animals having no say. Either drastic measures are unconscionable for every species or they're not. Either mild/momentary impacts are acceptable, or they're not ... universally across the spectrum.

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Old 06-24-2016, 08:25 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by clocker7
To me, the lasix issue is pretty much a nothingburger in terms of impacting the horse population negatively.

Sure, there are purists who consider any unnatural substance to be the end of the world. Just like vegetarians and meat, and all that jazz. But their claims strike me as mostly exaggeration and hyperventilation.

Believe it or not, people like me have consciences about animal treatment. But, speaking for myself, being reasonable is part of the equation.

For instance, why do human triathletes who punish their bodies beyond normal limits, dehydration and exhaustion and all, escape the criticism that clobbers horse trainers for brief Thoroughbred water loss via lasix? The latter is nearly benign, compared to the former. And don't give me the baloney about animals having no say. Either drastic measures are unconscionable for every species or they're not. Either mild/momentary impacts are acceptable, or they're not ... universally across the spectrum.
I see, statements that animals have no choice about what harmful drugs are injected into their system are baloney. So you must think that horses are asking for Lasix. It is the moral responsibility of trainers to do what is best for their equine charges.
Your continued claiming that the effects of Lasix are "mild and momentary" are contradicted by all the science. Please educate yourself on the subject before making your incorrect statements.
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Old 06-27-2016, 10:37 AM   #146
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Kentucky attorney general's office says tracks cannot write Lasix-free races

Last year, Keenland tried to run some “no Lasix” races, and the idiotic Kentucky Attorney General wouldn’t let them do it. Other pro sports are trying to rid their sport of PEDs, racing is doing just the opposite-forcing their athletes to take them.


http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-att...six-free-races
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Old 06-27-2016, 12:50 PM   #147
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Watched John Oliver last night and his main topic was doping. One part that struck me because it related to horses. He was saying cheating has been going on forever, but making it legal isn't the answer either. One of the reasons, paraphrasing, is that you force those that want to be clean to dope too to be competitive. This is exactly what has happened in racing with Lasix IMO.
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Old 06-27-2016, 10:22 PM   #148
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Couldn't agree more CJ.
Problem is too many 'trainers' don't seem to know how to train without drugs. After all, that's the only way they've ever done it. When everyone is doing it someone has to win, which is presented as proof that's the way to do it!
Instead of believing what's best for the horse is what's best for the trainer, they're operating on the principal that what they think is best for them is what's best for the horse. There is a big difference between people with horses and horsemen.
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Old 06-28-2016, 01:42 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by cj
Watched John Oliver last night and his main topic was doping. One part that struck me because it related to horses. He was saying cheating has been going on forever, but making it legal isn't the answer either. One of the reasons, paraphrasing, is that you force those that want to be clean to dope too to be competitive. This is exactly what has happened in racing with Lasix IMO.
its your opinion but it also happens to be a proven fact.
It drove me nuts and ultimately had a big hand in driving me out of the game.
Cheat or leave is basically what it came down to in the late nineties and around 2001. I knew it would take years more to have labs catch up .
I chose to leave.
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:31 AM   #150
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At the end of the last century, the prevailing attitude was “if you ain’t drugging you ain’t trying.” That was true in every sport not just racing. Back then the general public didn’t understand the power/danger of PEDs. There was a conception that they were like “vitamins” and that athletes were happier and healthier on them.
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