"I think this hurt him really bad."

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

No way. Derbies are won and lost on the far turn. It's actually, really, the most important part of the race.

The VAST majority of Derby winners throughout history have been leading at the 1/8th pole, because they either made moves or opened up or turned back challengers at the 5/16th.

Sure, it's important, but I also know how to watch a race and see that none of the horse's impacted would've won had they not. WOW was most severely impacted and he hardly lost any momentum despite how horrible the "what if" may've been.

I agree with the DQ while at the same time acknowledging that the other horses wouldn't have won had the foul not occurred.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

We agree on something,......

Hard for me to buy into that for the first time in a century plus 45 yrs this horse was the only one that ever should have come down.

Churchill sets themselves up for this shit by allowing 20 horses then runs on a track they can barely stand up on. Let alone run around the turns.

Right, there may have been too time other times horses should have been DQed. It's about time that this absurd tradition ends. That's a good thing.

It has been public knowledge for years that I detest the unsafe and unfair 20 horse fields. That doesn't mean that we should throw out the rules. If anything, that means that the rules should be strictly enforced.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Sure, it's important, but I also know how to watch a race and see that none of the horse's impacted would've won had they not. WOW was most severely impacted and he hardly lost any momentum despite how horrible the "what if" may've been.

I agree with the DQ while at the same time acknowledging that the other horses wouldn't have won had the foul not occurred.

Probably true, however the rules do not say that the horses interfered with would have won. Only that they lost a chance at a higher placing. The Derby pays off to the top 6 finishers.

When a horse is fouled so badly in the middle of a move that he pactillay goes down and is taken up sharply he losses momentum, especially at this late stage. Long Range Boddy definitely lost momentum and dropped like a stone after the interference. Hardly likely for any horse, especially a closer. His jockey also claimed foul.

[bobphilo]

Now I hear that Service is trying to get them to order a record of all the stewards cell phone records for the 22 minutes of the inquiry. If true that is ultimate in being a sore loser. Making a serious charge with no basis. Need to follow this story up. Anybody hear about this?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

Now I hear that Service is trying to get them to order a record of all the stewards cell phone records for the 22 minutes of the inquiry. If true that is ultimate in being a sore loser. Making a serious charge with no basis. Need to follow this story up. Anybody hear about this?

If they are serious, this a huge mistake.

In any court case, the state's attorneys are going to argue that the stewards' decision is unreviewable. If you are representing the Maximum Security people, you want to assure the Court that there was a real due process violation that justifies intervention and you are just not just fishing around for anything you might turn up. Demanding cell phone records of stewards is a great way to convince a court that you are, indeed, just fishing for something.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

The Derby pays off to the top 6 finishers.

Let us guess:

Sixth money is distributed in a dark and smoky room somewhere, with no details offered to the outside world?

Do the Japanese know about this (even yet) ?


(or maybe you're suggesting, with the word finishers, that Japan has no cause to be aware, as Master Fencer literally finished 7th)

[chiguy]

Originally Posted by SandyLoam

It amazes me that so many say that it must stand, because it happened, even with mistakes, if not outright skulduggery. People prefer to lay down, instead of seeking excellence and Justice. It happened, so it's OK. Well, it's not OK. And, people asking "So this is the first winner who fouled and caused problems?" as if they ALL did. That is an absolute fool's argument, and the top one tweeted. They got it right Saturday, that's what's important. Maximum Security almost caused a catastrophic pileup. Think about it. Those horses were all out and only the talents of jockeys kept a disaster from happening. While Saez went on his merry way. I'm actually surprised Kentucky's stewards made that call, but I'm so glad they did. Buck up race fans, this was a very good day for the game.

I agree with this. People keep talking about 20 horses running on a small muddy track, well only one of them couldn't keep a straight course. The rest of them managed to get around without committing a foul.

[LemonSoupKid]

"I agree with this. People keep talking about 20 horses running on a small muddy track, well only one of them couldn't keep a straight course. The rest of them managed to get around without getting called for a foul."

I helped you out there (strike text ain't workin)

[MargieRose]

Take a look a what happened to Little Currant:

1974 – LITTLE CURRENT – When the 1974 Triple Crown was completed you would have been hard-pressed to find anyone who did not firmly believe that Little Current should have swept all three races. A horse who always came from the clouds, Little Current was unfortunate to have been stuck in the largest Derby field ever with 23 runners. Racing dead-last, more than 20 lengths off the lead, Little Current and his new jockey Bobby Ussery found themselves stuck behind the entire field approaching the quarter pole. Ussery had no choice but to swing wide just as the horses began to fan out in front of him, forcing Little Current way out past the middle of the track, at least 15-wide. No one could recall a horse going that wide in the Derby. He was about seven or eight paths wider than the horse closest to him. And that horse was very wide. He closed from 17th at the quarter pole to finish fifth and then went on to romp by seven lengths in both the Preakness and Belmont.

Hard Luck Derby Horses over the Past 50 Years

Instead of copping an attitude about what he feels to be an unjust DQ, West should put his big-boy pants on and run his colt in both the Preakness and the Belmont. Who knows, Maximum Security just might win both by seven lengths, too...fairly.

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by MargieRose

Take a look a what happened to Little Currant:Instead of copping an attitude about what he feels to be an unjust DQ, West should put his big-boy pants on and run his colt in both the Preakness and the Belmont. Who knows, Maximum Security just might win both by seven lengths, too...fairly.

"I wasn’t happy with him on the track yesterday," trainer Jason Servis told Edelson. "It wasn’t the same horse I saw before the Derby and after the Florida Derby. My guess is that, when Doc (Bill) Keegan and I get together he might need some time off now."

Maximum Security, who finished first by 1 3/4 lengths but was disqualified due to interference before the top of the stretch, also exited the race with cuts on his hind legs. His owner, Gary West, considers the abrasions evidence that the trailing War of Will interfered with Maximum Security before the colt veered out and is seeking the overturn the stewards' ruling placing him 17th.

The July 20 Haskell Invitational (G1) sets up as a longer-term target for Maximum Security.

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...sidelines_123#

[MargieRose]

Originally Posted by Augenj

"I wasn’t happy with him on the track yesterday," trainer Jason Servis told Edelson. "It wasn’t the same horse I saw before the Derby and after the Florida Derby. My guess is that, when Doc (Bill) Keegan and I get together he might need some time off now."

Maximum Security, who finished first by 1 3/4 lengths but was disqualified due to interference before the top of the stretch, also exited the race with cuts on his hind legs. His owner, Gary West, considers the abrasions evidence that the trailing War of Will interfered with Maximum Security before the colt veered out and is seeking the overturn the stewards' ruling placing him 17th.

The July 20 Haskell Invitational (G1) sets up as a longer-term target for Maximum Security.

After an accident of some sort, lawyers usually send his or her client to see a doctor, presumably to help boost his or her case. Am not saying that MS wasn't injured a bit, but it looked to me that MS veered over into WoWs path...sure he could have clipped him.

Slow motion video (watch the water line):

Twitter

[Augenj]

Originally Posted by MargieRose

After an accident of some sort, lawyers usually send his or her client to see a doctor, presumably to help boost his or her case. Am not saying that MS wasn't injured a bit, but it looked to me that MS veered over into WoWs path...sure he could have clipped him.

Slow motion video (watch the water line):

https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status...21426941386752

Agreed. If that water line doesn't drift back in towards the rail, it's pretty conclusive.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

If they are serious, this a huge mistake.

In any court case, the state's attorneys are going to argue that the stewards' decision is unreviewable. If you are representing the Maximum Security people, you want to assure the Court that there was a real due process violation that justifies intervention and you are just not just fishing around for anything you might turn up. Demanding cell phone records of stewards is a great way to convince a court that you are, indeed, just fishing for something.

Nah, just straight up discovery. You say you're a lawyer, if you wouldn't do this than I feel for your clients.

Discovery is fishing. You do realize without fishing Big Tabacco wouldn't have been taken down? If the records show they were having private discussions, the DQ gets over turned immediately.

The case would almost certainly be in federal court. The multistate, $75k threshold for jurisdiction, is clearly met. If smart they'll argue as a class action in violation of the Commerce Clause. Even if only grounded on breach of contract (which is what that entry form was, techinically a contract of adhesion, which are disfavored by judges,) all equitable remedies still apply, and the crosss border money lost alone is going to make a federal district judge loath to grant an order to dismiss for failure to state a claim.

If the defendant is the state of Ky as you suggest (only way a state's atty gets to argue anything) the form/law/regulation gets tossed on EP and DP clauses.

Welcome to federal practice.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by MargieRose

After an accident of some sort, lawyers usually send his or her client to see a doctor, presumably to help boost his or her case. Am not saying that MS wasn't injured a bit, but it looked to me that MS veered over into WoWs path...sure he could have clipped him.

Slow motion video (watch the water line):

https://twitter.com/NBCSports/status...21426941386752

Great video. We can even see the hind legs of MS making contact with the forelegs of WOW when he came in on him. Also if you follow the water line you can see that it's ridiculous to say that CH came in and committed the foul as some claim. Remember, no one claimed foul on him. I've heard people blame everyone but my Uncle Joe and Max Sec for the foul.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by MutuelClerk

Bub Bye

I'm sure Keenland agress with you.

How many million dollar babies have you bought and million dollar trainers have you employed and million dollar races have you filled with your horses?

I hope the West's do leave, their foundation sounds like a far nobler endeavor than entertaining you and Grits and that other lady who sounds like Grits's sockpuppet.

Bet you were all in for West Coast, who folded like a rock, to use the Orangeman's phraseology. Maybe you even had a few bucks on Dollar Bill in 2001? Maybe a saver bet on Game Winner?

Probably killed you that crappy old Mendelssohn ran West Coast into the ground. O'Brien and Moore are kicking themselves for not claiming foul on Audible and being raised to 3rd. Audible came over 4 wide from the rail before the 1st turn pushing the Hollendofer horse into Mendelssohn, knocking his legs completely off the track.

Foul's a foul, and safety is all that matters, and no Derby horse ever challenged Mendelssohn again, and Audible is as big a dud as evey other 2018 3yo. God knows, Coolemore deserved better!

I might have to tune into the Derby next year, it's going to be insane with objections. hee!