"I think this hurt him really bad."

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Genuine Risk had a legitimate gripe, but Bayern wasn't DQ'd because it is considered almost impossible to determine whether incidents at the start cost a horse a place. Specifically, Shared Belief had 10 furlongs to recover.

The argument on Bayern was always a bank shot- that the incident eliminated the other speed horse, who supposedly would have went out with Bayern and softened him up. But that was never going to fly with the stewards.

Same thing here, though. The horses had plenty of time down the stretch to give a battle to the wire and instead the winner won clear and easily. So I see both sides of this.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Every horse has a chance to "recover" if it's close enough to the lead at the point where the incident occurred and it's still standing. But Shared Belief was knocked off stride by Bayern whether one choose's to call it a foul or not. And even if there was contact on Saturday, no horse was going to pass Maximum Security in the stretch.

If the Broker's Tip-Head Play Derby didn't result in a DQ then certainly this shouldn't have either. It seems there is a different standard at this level. How many DQs have there been in the 450 or so races in TC history?

1. The issue isn't whether it helped Maximum Security, but whether it cost War of Will or Long Range Toddy a placing. It clearly did.

2. Bayern can't be proven to have cost Shared Belief a place, because he had the rest of the race to recover and thus you can argue he still finishes 4th without the interference. (That's why Shared Belief's fans needed the "bank shot" argument- that Bayern also fouled Moreno and Moreno wasn't going to win but would have gone out with Bayern and set the race up for Shared Belief.)

3. The Broker's Tip-Head Play Derby was at a time when Churchill didn't even have a photo finish camera, let alone film patrol. Photo finishes started showing up at Del Mar in 1937, and film patrol was definitely invented by Hollywood Park, with its access to sophisticated motion picture equipment, around 1946 or so. Churchill didn't get film patrol until the mid-1950's, when it started to spread to tracks outside of California.

Had the Broker's Tip-Head Play Derby happened after Churchill got the film patrol, it would have been carefully studied and very likely could have resulted in a disqualification. This wasn't the only example of a race that was filmed by newsreels but where there was no film patrol to allow a disqualification-- the 1936 Santa Anita Handicap (where Top Row fouled everyone in the stretch) and the Seabiscuit-Ligaroti match race in 1938 are other examples of this.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Same thing here, though. The horses had plenty of time down the stretch to give a battle to the wire and instead the winner won clear and easily. So I see both sides of this.

No way. Derbies are won and lost on the far turn. It's actually, really, the most important part of the race.

The VAST majority of Derby winners throughout history have been leading at the 1/8th pole, because they either made moves or opened up or turned back challengers at the 5/16th.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Grits

It was Dancer's Image in 1968. Dqd for traces of bute in post race test.

You are both right. Dancer's Image was disqualified from 1st for Bute. Gate Dancer was disqualified from 4th for fouling Fali Time.

[Grits]

Thanks, Dilane.


Welcome to Pace Advantage, Roaring Good Time.

[Rex Phinney]

This DQ is lame. All the way around. How are you going to put the 20 horse in the winner's circle when he was barely the one affected and he had every chance to go by the 7 and was never going todo so.


I'm not supporting everything West is doing or saying, but he is right about his statement regarding the 20 horse field. You put that many horses on the track and this type of thing is going to happen.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Grits

Thanks, Dilane.


Welcome to Pace Advantage, Roaring Good Time.

So Maximum Security goes down as the first horse in history to be disqualified from the Derby without "Dancer" somewhere in his name.

[SandyLoam]

It amazes me that so many say that it must stand, because it happened, even with mistakes, if not outright skulduggery. People prefer to lay down, instead of seeking excellence and Justice. It happened, so it's OK. Well, it's not OK. And, people asking "So this is the first winner who fouled and caused problems?" as if they ALL did. That is an absolute fool's argument, and the top one tweeted. They got it right Saturday, that's what's important. Maximum Security almost caused a catastrophic pileup. Think about it. Those horses were all out and only the talents of jockeys kept a disaster from happening. While Saez went on his merry way. I'm actually surprised Kentucky's stewards made that call, but I'm so glad they did. Buck up race fans, this was a very good day for the game.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Genuine Risk had a legitimate gripe...

Any idea why Genuine Risk's "legitimate gripe" was overruled...counselor?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Any idea why Genuine Risk's "legitimate gripe" was overruled...counselor?

It was a judgment call. Codex herded her out.

I don't HATE the stewards' decision-- it could have gone either way. And they had fewer angles and no HDTV back in 1980.

But I understand Genuine Risk's connections' complaint. That's what I mean. In contrast, Maximum Security's connections have no legitimate gripe. This was an obvious foul.

[Augenj]

And yet another video (NBC).

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...by_appeal_123#

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Steve R

this incident, which had no impact on the final outcome

Wrong.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

We agree on something,......

Hard for me to buy into that for the first time in a century plus 45 yrs this horse was the only one that ever should have come down.

Churchill sets themselves up for this shit by allowing 20 horses then runs on a track they can barely stand up on. Let alone run around the turns.

If this is the leg people are going to stand on, why bother?

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Steve R

this incident, which had no impact on the final outcome seems completely unworthy of a DQ.

War of Will could have hit the board without the foul. There are a ton of people who used War of Will underneath, so it isn't something to ignore.

[Gold Medal]

Look how quickly WOW recovered after checking . He had plenty of time to at least make a race of it instead of fading to 8th. He never had the horse to go by Max Sec