a theory: the foul was deliberate

[Fightingirish51195]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpqffgak7To

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fightingirish51195

How are you going to prove it when there are other alternative explanations you can’t disprove. It’s impossible for you to prove this. Just stop

The alternative explanations involve the horse conveniently moving each place where there was a horse who happened to need to be interfered with.

That's not believable. It is clearly intentional.

[cj]

I definitely think there was some race riding going on there.

[Fightingirish51195]

Luis is a great rider. I’m assuming he knew he had horse. MS rebroke with late speed and went wire to wire. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt here in that if he knew he was on the best horse, he wouldn’t need to try to intimidate other horses at that point in the race

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fightingirish51195

Luis is a great rider. I’m assuming he knew he had horse. MS rebroke with late speed and went wire to wire. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt here in that if he knew he was on the best horse, he wouldn’t need to try to intimidate other horses at that point in the race

If you want to give him a presumption, I think I have overcome that presumption easily with the actual evidence.

And if you don't think riders on frontrunners sometimes change lanes to affect the chances of horses behind them, you need to watch more races.

[clicknow]

I agree with the poster who said many of these horses are just not experienced enough, don't have enough races (esp. in large fields) under their belts and still run very green.

I can't see it being intentional as I don't imagine there's a whole lot of jockeys who intentionally wish to possibly cripple or maim jocks in their colony, or any of the horses. I could be wrong about that of course, but I just don't think that about Saez.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by clicknow

I agree with the poster who said many of these horses are just not experienced enough, don't have enough races (esp. in large fields) under their belts and still run very green.

I can't see it being intentional as I don't imagine there's a whole lot of jockeys who intentionally wish to possibly cripple or maim jocks in their colony, or any of the horses. I could be wrong about that of course, but I just don't think that about Saez.

That's not the intent I mean.

I mean he is trying to win the race and in doing so, is intentionally trying to interfere with other horses.

This is a standard part of race riding. We can't act like we are all virgins here.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by cj

I definitely think there was some race riding going on there.

Damn. So race riding is now a DQ in one of the richest races in the country?


Now, I certainly don't believe it was race riding, because the horse re-broke and won by open light.


I think a 5th race out of 3YO and the jock got a bit lazy and drifted out a bit. If he was all of 3 feet further ahead, nothing would be the bother.





Instead, he is 17th.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I mean he is trying to win the race and in doing so, is intentionally trying to interfere with other horses.

Closing a gap at the rail is a way to interfere w/other horses. Going to the outside of a horse who you know doesn't like the rail is a way to interfere with other horses. But in neither case do you trample over them to do so.

There is all kinds of "race riding". But doing those things by actually kicking the legs out from under other horses, or physically "taking them out" is not race riding. That's called recklessness.

So yeah, we are not virgins here, and we do know the difference.

It's like endurance riding, it would be *intentional* to steal your opponents water before you cross a desert. That's not what happened here.

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

After moving out to foul War of Will, the moves back in and crowds Code of Honor. You can see this on NBC's overhead shot.

That makes me wonder if this was deliberate race riding. He was trying to impede his rivals on both sides.

I agree with this. If he stopped with the first foul on War of Will there would have been no DQ, I don't believe. It was the second foul on Code of Honor, who was full of run and was definitely going to take the lead on the rail, that looked very suspicious and was dangerous. He didn't bump Code of Honor hard, but it accomplished his objective. Code of Honor didn't want any part of the race after that even though he had clear sailing in the last furlong. I've seen horses try to jump the rail with lesser bumps. Dangerous move and Saez knew damn well what he was doing.

[Fightingirish51195]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

If you want to give him a presumption, I think I have overcome that presumption easily with the actual evidence.

And if you don't think riders on frontrunners sometimes change lanes to affect the chances of horses behind them, you need to watch more races.

Of course I think they change lanes. I’ve seen it a million times.

Ive also seen horses do it on their own

[depalma113]

The horse changed leads on the turn. They don’t corner on the wrong lead. They run straight. Running straight meant he changed paths. There was nothing intentional about it.

[Fightingirish51195]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

If you want to give him a presumption, I think I have overcome that presumption easily with the actual evidence.

And if you don't think riders on frontrunners sometimes change lanes to affect the chances of horses behind them, you need to watch more races.

And nothing I said should give you the implication that I would think jockeys don’t change lanes intentionally. Never came close to claiming that

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by depalma113

The horse changed leads on the turn. They don’t corner on the wrong lead. They run straight. Running straight meant he changed paths. There was nothing intentional about it.

I don’t think so either. Had a ton of horse left and he wasn’t the only horse that drifted at that spot yesterday. Bearing back in is the correction of the jock trying to control him. People act like these are cars with steering wheels. The horse outweighs the jockey by 15 times and can veer in a blink. It takes a second to realize that and grab the horse. This isn’t NASCAR with million dollar cars that move on a dime. They come around the corner with screaming and yelling that loud, some are gonna spook. I swear, people should be around a race horse when they are jacked up. They are head strong, flighty animals. Try holding one, I’m old now, I can’t do it.

I agree , people saying it’s intentional have no proof, it’s borderline slander. Country House did some bumping himself, nothing said. It happens every year when this race is close on the turns. Country House was also the least affected and would of never won that race. It wasn’t even close at the end of the stretch. Of course, the boot lickers on TV will say right call. But there’s been 144 prior derbies without a call like that. If you tell me that’s never happened before. That’s the first Derby you ever watched or you are an idiot.

Gonna be hard for me to ever bet the derby again, bad precedent, people will be calling an objection every year now. That’s why i think WOW didn’t claim crap, you just don’t if the horse wins for fun.

[The Captain]

Six crippled or dead jockeys and horses at Kentucky Derby is a bad headline.
Racing dodged a bullet.