Religion II

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No it isn't. It's proportionate to the immensity of the offense. And all offenses are infinitely offensive to an infinitely holy, righteous and just God. Therefore, eternal punishment proportionately fits the crime.

So if a guy does a capitol offense to God during a 75 year lifetime here on Earth and is still burning a trillion years from now in Hell, that is proportionate? Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Imagine how much better and constructive it would be to rehabilitate that guy with God's love for a trillion years. He'd turn into an exemplary instrument of God, helping others to not do the mistakes he made.

Originally Posted by boxcar

But why would your god of unconditional love "force" resolution? What does your god force, specifically? Punishment? But how could your god of all love, all unconditional love even think about punishment, let alone administer it?

I never said God does not correct. He just does not punish. You may notice the same in nature. Its called evolution.

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is no "karma" in heaven because heaven is already a perfect, sinless environment. To expect reciprocation implies that heaven will always be lacking in some way because one would always be anticipating or expecting something in return, such as the expectation of kindness in return for kindness. In a perfect environment, there would be no expectation or anticipation of improvement in any way, shape of form. Karma in heaven would be as useless as faith, hope, mercy or compassion in heaven.

"Heaven" is not the end of the road, that's why there is Karma there.

Originally Posted by boxcar

TReally? So, Jesus must not have been God in the flesh because God, being a perfect being, needs nothing. There is nothing that can enhance or improve his being. If God needed something to "enhance" his existence, then he must not be God. A gazillion followers are not going to increase the value of God's being or improve his being or enhance his being one iota. God needs nothing from his creatures.

Yes, but God didn't manifest in the flesh to boast how he needs nothing. He came to spread his message. And through his sacrifice he achieved his goal.What's so hard about that.

Originally Posted by boxcar

I thought you frowned on the idea of being judgmental? How do you get to sit in judgment of Judas? Are you so much more righteous and enlightened than he was?

I didn't judge Judas. He created his own Karma as we all do.

Originally Posted by boxcar

His suicide tells us he felt real guilt and genuine remorse. Haven't you ever done something really bad and experience such negative feelings afterward about yourself?

Yes. But its still egotistic. Its all about YOU. The only reason people kill themselves (if it is not from some incurable extreme physical pain) is because they do not feel loved.

The irony of being loved is that it's now NOT all about YOU but the love for that someone who loves you. That is the liberation from egotistic suicide. And if the one who loves you is, the Divine you experience within, then it is even better because people are not able to always be there for you because of their human frailties. If they let you down, you will be suicidal again. But the Divine within is always there 24/7 waiting with love.

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, you just can't come up with a convincing argument. I see Judas as being repentant, and repentance is necessary for salvation. Even your "best friend" preached repentance. To "repent" literally means to have a change of heart or mind, and clearly Judas did!

There is the Gnostic Gospel of Judas. I believe it is there or elsewhere that Judas is portrayed as conversing with Jesus to betray him. In other words by Jesus's request so that Jesus can accomplish his mission.

But it doesn't matter what you believe about Judas. In either case it was meant to be.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

So if a guy does a capitol offense to God during a 75 year lifetime here on Earth and is still burning a trillion years from now in Hell, that is proportionate? Sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

That is because you have never experienced the HOLY Spirit within you. For all your boasting of all your many "spiritual" experiences, this is one person you have never experienced within you; for if you had you would have humbly fallen prostrate on your face, and your attitude would have been like the prophet's, not having a self-righteous molecule in your body:

Isa 6:1-5
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
NASB

Imagine how much better and constructive it would be to rehabilitate that guy with God's love for a trillion years. He'd turn into an exemplary instrument of God, helping others to not do the mistakes he made.

But that person only reaped what he has sown. And he will never complain about the justness of his sentence! I refer you to Jesus' story about the rich Man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31). There are many lessons to be learned from this story (and I have good reason to believe this isn't merely a parable but a true story); but I will point out only two noteworthy items at this time. The first is that while the rich man pleaded for some mercy to be relieved of his agony, he never complained to Abraham that God was unjust in his sentencing. He never complained that God's judgment of him was unrighteous, unfair.

Secondly, Abraham certainly thought God's punishment was just; for he reminded Lazarus of the just reason for his punishment.

I never said God does not correct. He just does not punish. You may notice the same in nature. Its called evolution.

No, I haven't; for we are moral creatures made in God's image. Rocks and trees and dog poop and goldfish, tomatoes, etc., etc., etc, are not.

So you want to play semantics, do you? How's this title for your god: Divine Warden of the Department of Corrections?

"Heaven" is not the end of the road, that's why there is Karma there.

Of course, Heaven is the "end of the road". Heaven is God's throne (Isa 66:1; Act 7:41)!

And if memory serves, didn't Jesus constantly preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of HEAVEN?

And when Jesus taught his disciples how to pray by praying what we call The Lord's Prayer, didn't he pray to his Father his will be done here on earth as it is in Heaven?

And when Jesus left this earth 40 days after his resurrection, did he not ascend into Heaven?

Heaven is not so much a place as it is God's Holy Presence. But if there's something better out there than God, please "enlighten" us. If God isn't the last stop on life's tour, I'll be waiting anxiously with bated breath to find out what or who is! Please, please, do not keep us in suspense!

Why are you so woefully and willfully ignorant of your "best friend's" Word?

Yes, but God didn't manifest in the flesh to boast how he needs nothing. He came to spread his message. And through his sacrifice he achieved his goal.What's so hard about that.

But God by nature is self-sufficient. If God had not come in the flesh to "spread the message", and decided instead to consign all mankind to hell the way he will with all the fallen angels, that would not have diminished his holy character one scintilla. His sentence would be JUST!

I didn't judge Judas. He created his own Karma as we all do.

But you have judged Judas, just like you did with Trump a few months back!

Yes. But its still egotistic. Its all about YOU. The only reason people kill themselves (if it is not from some incurable extreme physical pain) is because they do not feel loved.

Why are your reading skills so pathetically poor? I said that Judas felt REMORSE and SORROW in his soul. I never mentioned anything about physical pain. Haven't you ever read in scripture that godly sorrow leads to REPENTANCE (2Cor 7:10-11)? How do you know Judas did not pray to God to grant him repentance and God answered his prayer, since only God CAN grant repentance (Act 11:18; 2Tim 2:25).

And if Judas had a love problem, would not your god have fixed that by ushering Judas into his presence where they could see each other face-to-face? Would not Judas, then, have sensed fully your god's UNCONDITIONAL love for him, and would not Judas be irresistibly constrained to return that love? If someone is truly deprived of something, the way to fix that is to end the deprivation by providing what the person needs. If a person is dying of thirst because he's been deprived of water, is the remedy of unconditional love "correction", chastisement, punishment? Or is the remedy to terminate the deprivation and give the poor soul what he needs to survive and thrive?

And you are ignoring my questions about the thief on the cross who was a criminal condemned by Rome. How did he manage to escape your god's Karma? I mean...you did tell us that Jesus was truly up to speed on this karma thingy, right? That Jesus was fully conversant about "the law of karma", right? Well...what happened? Did the Son of God have a lapse of memory when he promised the thief that that very day he would be with Him in paradise?

The irony of being loved is that it's now NOT all about YOU but the love for that someone who loves you. That is the liberation from egotistic suicide. And if the one who loves you is, the Divine you experience within, then it is even better because people are not able to always be there for you because of their human frailties. If they let you down, you will be suicidal again. But the Divine within is always there 24/7 waiting with love.

Ooh..you're such an expert on love. But you have forgotten two "little factoid" about godly love: The person who has God's love within him and reciprocates that love back to him always believes Him. You very obviously do not have God's love within you.

John 5:42-47
42\ but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him. 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 "For if you BELIEVED Moses, you would BELIEVE Me; for he wrote of Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
NASB

And,

1 Cor 13:7
7 [Love] bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
NASB

Did you catch that? Methinks you come a "wee bit" short on what true, godly love is.

And secondly, those who truly love God keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
NASB

Yet, you do not worship God corporately, you do not fear God, you're not part of a local body of believers which means you can't love fellow believers and minister to them and they to you, you do not financially support the "spread of the message" you just talked about it, you do not evangelize, etc., etc.. All these things and much more are commanded by your "best friend" either directly or through his prophets or apostles.

And, yet, you fancy yourself as being an expert on God's love. Well you might be -- but isn't the God of the bible. It's much more likely the god of this world.

There is the Gnostic Gospel of Judas. I believe it is there or elsewhere that Judas is portrayed as conversing with Jesus to betray him. In other words by Jesus's request so that Jesus can accomplish his mission.

But it doesn't matter what you believe about Judas. In either case it was meant to be.

That's nice. And I'd bet my bottom dollar you'd believe more of what is written in that relatively small extra-biblical document than you believe in the entire bible.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You missed your calling. You would have made a FORTUNE writing children's books...to scare the kiddies into eating their spinach.

I don't see anything scary in the excerpt I quoted from that article. In fact, I find it very comforting and reassuring.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Karma is the spiritual equivalent of Newtons physical law.

Some of us are more advanced and do not create as much Karma for ourselves. That does not affect how much God loves us.


I knew you would not understand the "illusion of sin". Too advanced for you. If you don't get it, do you think the simpletons of 2000 years ago could understand it? NO.

Only when you TRANSCEND sin can you understand its illusion. Christ was not about to go over their heads explaining advanced spirituality to people who had no experience in that and were totally materialistic.

When you experience God, you will understand what I say.

Oh...so you are sinless! You are like God! You're above sin! You truly have arrived, haven't you? Should we all bow down and kiss the soles of your feet?

And as far as those ignorant materialistic knuckle-dragging Neanderthals of Christ's day, I thought that was the whole point behind the necessity of being born again from above -- by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did tell Nicodemus that he MUST be born again...

And didn't Paul teach that it is the Spirit who knows the mind of God, and that believers, therefore, can know and understand the mind of God because believers have the mind of Christ!?

1 Cor 2:10-16
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"

But we have the mind of Christ.
NIV

So, you're inferring that the very God of the Universe, the Creator of all things, the all-wise, all-knowing God was incapable of explaining Spirituality 102 and imparting understanding to his hearers so they would comprehend him? It's no wonder at all, you're not a true disciple of his! Jesus was just a wanna-be spiritual master who failed his audience and followers drastically!
He was just a fake guru. Either that or YOU are the fool who will die for lack of [spiritual] understanding (Prov 10:21).

And then we have this account of your "best friend":

Luke 24:13-33
13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they were conversing with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15 And it came about that while they were conversing and discussing, Jesus Himself approached, and began traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17 And He said to them, "What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 And one of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" And they said to Him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him up to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22 "But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that He was alive. 24 "And some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see." 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. 28 And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He would go farther. 29 And they urged Him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over." And He went in to stay with them. 30 And it came about that when He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them. 31 And their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight. 32 And they said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"
NASB

Why do you put so much trust in your pathetic, impoverished version of God? Can you not see that your god is a product of your fallen, depraved, corrupt mind -- that you have in fact created an idol made in your own image?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

Corinthians 9:6; "... whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully."

Unless a drought comes. No rain = no crop.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I don't see anything scary in the excerpt I quoted from that article. In fact, I find it very comforting and reassuring.

"Fairy tales can come true...it can happen to you...if you are young at heart..."

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

"Fairy tales can come true...it can happen to you...if you are young at heart..."

What is the "fairy tale" -- the afterlife?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What is the "fairy tale" -- the afterlife?

No. The fairy tale is the reservation that some of us think we've made, in order to secure our spot there. This "reservation" exists only in our minds.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

No. The fairy tale is the reservation that some of us think we've made, in order to secure our spot there. This "reservation" exists only in our minds.

Speaking for myself from a biblical perspective, of course, I never made any reservation. The reservation was made for me by God. The salvation to which I was made to participate is not mine but God's. I had no hand in my" second birth", anymore than I did in my physical birth.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Speaking for myself from a biblical perspective, of course, I never made any reservation. The reservation was made for me by God. The salvation to which I was made to participate is not mine but God's. I had no hand in my" second birth", anymore than I did in my physical birth.

You believe in what a particular book tells you...as if a book could somehow contain the complete "Word of God". If something isn't in this book, then it doesn't exist for you...and you've never bothered to investigate the circumstances under which the book was compiled..or the motives and character of those who authorized this assignment. The emperor Constantine is called an "Isapostolos" by the Christian Church...which means that he is considered to be an equal of the Apostles. Has the church bothered to investigate whether or not Constantine lived the life of an "Apostle"...before or AFTER he supposedly "converted" to Christianity? Did the Romans of Constantine's era BEHAVE as if they were newly-converted Christians?

The stories of the bible weren't written by emperor Constantine...but they were EDITED by him. And you can't separate the "editor" from the 'edition'...IMO.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You believe in what a particular book tells you...as if a book could somehow contain the complete "Word of God". If something isn't in this book, then it doesn't exist for you...and you've never bothered to investigate the circumstances under which the book was compiled..or the motives and character of those who authorized this assignment. The emperor Constantine is called an "Isapostolos" by the Christian Church...which means that he is considered to be an equal of the Apostles. Has the church bothered to investigate whether or not Constantine lived the life of an "Apostle"...before or AFTER he supposedly "converted" to Christianity? Did the Romans of Constantine's era BEHAVE as if they were newly-converted Christians?

The stories of the bible weren't written by emperor Constantine...but they were EDITED by him. And you can't separate the "editor" from the 'edition'...IMO.

The "book" contains everything a person needs to know about the Faith and Practice of Jesus' Gospel message.

2 Peter 1:1-5
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
NASB

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The "book" contains everything a person needs to know about the Faith and Practice of Jesus' Gospel message.

2 Peter 1:1-5
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
NASB

Yes...the bible says that the bible is enough. And the Quran claims likewise. But I know better than to believe all that I read.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...the bible says that the bible is enough. And the Quran claims likewise. But I know better than to believe all that I read.

Yeay, but Islam is just another ho-hum religion of self-help and good works, in a long line of other such religions, where one's good and bad deeds get weighed on a scale of justice.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yeay, but Islam is just another ho-hum religion of self-help and good works, in a long line of other such religions, where one's good and bad deeds get weighed on a scale of justice.

You make "self-help and good works" sound like such a bad thing. Will all our problems be over if we just opt to sleep with the bible under our pillow?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You make "self-help and good works" sound like such a bad thing. Will all our problems be over if we just opt to sleep with the bible under our pillow?

The root cause to all mankind's moral/spiritual problem is his corrupt, defiled, depraved, evil, sinful nature (whatever term you choose to use that is least offensive to you). But this is something that is beyond our capability to fix. We cannot change what we are. ("Cannot" and "are" are the operative terms here.) Not only does the bible teach this irrefutable truth, but the foundational law to all the laws of logic called the Law of Identity, tells us this. (In fact, no rational thought could not be possible without this Law!) And Natural Revelation (reality in this world as we all know it) tells us this.

Biblical Christianity is the only religion on this planet that offers a genuine fix to an otherwise insolvable problem -- and this offer comes through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the promise of the gift of God Almighty himself, indwelling all his people through the Holy Spirit to all those, who by faith, trust in Jesus alone for their salvation from the penalty, power and, ultimately, presence of sin. This presence and work of the Holy Spirit coupled with objective spiritual truth (Word of God) also working in the hearts, minds and soul's of God's people are how the "old man" (sinful nature) is "put off" and how the "new man" (in being made partakers of the divine nature) is "put on".

Of course, this doesn't mean that any saint in this world will ever be sinless or perfectly righteous. But the "back of sin" is broken when one truly believes the Gospel, and God, of course, follows through on his promises. The power of sin in a believer is slowly and surely but truly and substantially diminished in this life. The sin nature, however, is not removed from any saint in this life. That will happen at the General Resurrection when Christ returns and his saints are raised from the dead, and given glorious spiritual bodies just like he has.