Who Wins this race. - Page 4 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

tzipi · 01-30-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye

I gave Affirmed a 2 out of ten chance so He deserves some consideration. He was the last horse to win the Triple Crown for cryin out loud. How bout Tiznow? Would he win this race? I know one thing and that is for sure Cigar would be in big trouble.

Well Alydar was right there too against Affirmed. I just don't think Affirmed could hang with this group. But you never know. Cigar could sit off the pace and at his height of his career(not his last 3-4 races) I think he could def be in the mix at the wire. He was explosive on the turn and stretch.

Buckeye · 01-30-2010, 09:55 PM

Do not completely disagree, but the turn and the stretch are not the finish line. Cigar won many races including the Dubai World Cup, which troubles me most in dismissing him here. He didn't really beat anyone of note in the Breeders' Cup.

Ejmenz · 01-30-2010, 09:56 PM

Affirmed BEAT the Bid. He could hang with any group, and he beat Alydar, that was a great accomplishment, and he beat him again and again, Affirmed was an amazing horse, look at his Cali prep races before the derby, he may not have beaten Alydar by much, but he beat the rest by a bunch.

Ejmenz · 01-30-2010, 10:01 PM

I love handicappers.

16 people pick Spectacular Bid.

0 people pick Affirmed.

Yet Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid on the track.

How many nails can one horse step on?

tzipi · 01-30-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye

Do not completely disagree, but the turn and the stretch are not the finish line. Cigar won many races including the Dubai World Cup, which troubles me most in dismissing him here. He didn't really beat anyone of note in the Breeders' Cup.

L'carrirer. Soul of the Matter(Won Super Derby,Goodward,2nd Dubai), Peaks and Valleys(3yo Canadian Champion and Horse of the Year) Unaccounted for(G1 winner and multiple stakes placed), Concern(Oaklawn H,Californian,Arkansas Derby,BC Classic). Amongst others stakes winners..
pretty darn good field and he set a new record in the race. Hard to toss Cigar at his height. Scary good.

bisket · 01-30-2010, 10:12 PM

you could probably argue this point forever, but i think bid was not at his best that summer and fall after the triple crown races. most times the handicap horses arent asked for their best races until fall, and the 3 year olds have already been through the ringer with the crown races. now i think the spectacular bid that raced in california and then came back east in his 4 year old year rates with any horse on that list, and deserves second billing. he set 2 track records at santa anita that winter. at 7 furs and a 1 1/4 mile that still stand today. not a small accomplishment at a major track like that. the 4 year old bid was an all time great

Buckeye · 01-30-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tzipi

L'carrirer. Soul of the Matter(Won Super Derby,Goodward,2nd Dubai), Peaks and Valleys(3yo Canadian Champion and Horse of the Year) Unaccounted for(G1 winner and multiple stakes placed), Concern(Oaklawn H,Californian,Arkansas Derby,BC Classic). Amongst others stakes winners..
pretty darn good field and he set a new record in the race. Hard to toss Cigar at his height. Scary good.

Bunch of World beaters.

The Bid went Nine for Nine as a four-year-old and overall I think he was better than Affirmed. I think I got it right.

The Bid

Seattle Slew

Affirmed.

No Cigar.

tzipi · 01-30-2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye

Bunch of World beaters.

The Bid went Nine for Nine as a four-year-old and overall I think he was better than Affirmed. I think I got it right.

The Bid

Seattle Slew

Affirmed.

No Cigar.

World beaters? Sorry but I don't think that was the worst field in BC history. I didn't even list all the horses or their wins.

All the raw speed. I'll take Cigar or Forego at a price. Is this most talented poll or who'd win? Because there's a TON of speed that's going to burn itself out in this race. Affirmed,Seattle Slew,Ghostzapper,Bid all bust hard from the gate.
You're saying the Bid, Seattle Slew and Affirmed run 1-2-3 with all that speed battling eachother from the start?? Wow. Forego would have trouble closing into all that speed?? Again, wow.

Kimsus · 01-30-2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tzipi

L'carrirer. Soul of the Matter(Won Super Derby,Goodward,2nd Dubai), Peaks and Valleys(3yo Canadian Champion and Horse of the Year) Unaccounted for(G1 winner and multiple stakes placed), Concern(Oaklawn H,Californian,Arkansas Derby,BC Classic). Amongst others stakes winners..
pretty darn good field and he set a new record in the race. Hard to toss Cigar at his height. Scary good.

He also beat Smart Strike.

Kimsus · 01-30-2010, 10:53 PM

The one thing I will say about Cigar is he was campaigned agressively during the 2 years he was on top, plus he was wasted on the wrong surface for almost 2 years before being put on dirt. Maybe he didn't run the fastest races numbers wise but had he started on dirt sooner and had he picked his spots more wisely to preserve his freshness, there's no telling he may have been even better than what he showed.

tzipi · 01-30-2010, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimsus

He also beat Smart Strike.

He might've beat him in another race during the year but Smart Strike wasn't in the 95 BC Classic.

PaceAdvantage · 01-31-2010, 12:04 AM

Cigar's numbers weren't anything to sneeze at either...he ran some pretty fast races if I recall...but Seattle Slew was, in my opinion, in another world on his best day compared to Cigar.

Norm · 01-31-2010, 05:44 AM

A tough call between Seattle Slew and Forego. I voted for Forego. That big, lumbering giant of a horse was hard to beat in a stretch run. Might be a tougher race if you switched out Affirmed for Dr. Fager and replaced Skip Away with Kelso.

tzipi · 01-31-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Cigar's numbers weren't anything to sneeze at either...he ran some pretty fast races if I recall...but Seattle Slew was, in my opinion, in another world on his best day compared to Cigar.

I agree,Seattle Slew is in another world but I was just wondering if all these raw high speed horses would wear him down a bit and set it up for a strong closer. Ghost,Seattle,Bid, and Affrimed will be at eachothers throats from the start. ALOT of speed put in this race.

mountainman · 01-31-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny V

Affirmed beat Spectacular Bid the next year in that same race. Of course there were age differences, both winners were 4 and the losers 3 yo. My vote goes to Slew.

Bud Delp once acknowledged privately to me that he thought Shoemaker blundered in the race you allude to, and I totally agree. With moderate rather than testing fractions, this virtual match race became a test of guts rather than talent. And remember also that the then 3-yr-old Bid improved considerably the next season. Like many who witnessed him (and so keenly appreciated his breaking the long drought of triple crown winners)) I have long knelt at the temple of mighty Secretariat, but my gut says 4-yr-old Spectacular Bid was indeed 'the best horse ever to look through a bridle.'

By the way, for a 'dream race,' this field seems a little lacking in raw speed.
Dr Fager would have wired this bunch toting 140.