Handicapper's Association - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

highnote · 03-20-2005, 01:10 PM

Has there been any discussion on this board about creating a Handicapper's Association? Maybe the time has come? I read a lot of complaints, but there doesn't seem to be any organization that can effectively deal with them.

Perhaps there are enough handicappers who would be interested in paying a yearly membership fee. With the fee perhaps several people could be paid a small stipend to run the administrative functions of the organization.

A board could be elected by votes from paying members.

I'd be willing to put up $100 or $200 per year for a good organization that looks after my interests. There could be various membership levels. If $20,000 or $30,000 could be raised that would pay for a lot of postage and printing. The board would probably meet at least once per year and some of the money could be used to offset some of the travel costs of the board members. If each board member was given, say, just $300 to help cover the cost of attending a meeting it would be a help.

I think it would be important that members of the board are only handicappers and not in the business of selling information based on data they buy from data providers. The board members should not be employed in the racing industry. The board members should not be owners of race horses. They should not be trainers, grooms, stable hands, etc. They should not be writers or journalists employed by a racing organization, nor should they be consultants to any racing organization. The board should consist solely of individuals whose only connection to racing is handicapping and betting. Every attempt should be made to ensure that there is not conflict of interest and that the member is interested in fighting for the rights of handicappers.

The role of the association could be to tackle some of the biggest issues facing handicappers.

For example, a lot of handicappers have questions about how data from data providers can be used. A handicappers association could make it their goal to find the correct answer. Perhaps money for a legal fund or for a lobbyist could be raised. Perhaps the board could negotiate favorable rates for its members at hotels for the Del Mar or Saratoga meets? Perhaps the board could negotiate favorable takeout rates with various betting outlets? The list is endless.

I'd be willing to get the ball rolling if there are enough interested people.

Any thoughts?

js

traynor · 03-20-2005, 07:58 PM

Great idea, but why corrupt it with money? If no one is interested in doing it for free, why would they do it for a couple of bucks as a stipend, or "trip expense"? Look at the open source software community; what they do is primarily for free. Keep the petty greed and hustling out of the picture, and it is a workable idea. Do it for the good of all, and for free, not to make a few extra bucks as yet another "group."
Thanks

breakage · 03-20-2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traynor

Do it for the good of all, and for free, not to make a few extra bucks as yet another "group."
Thanks

Exactly, I'd support any reasonable effort to organize players if it was free. You have to do it as something that is free because the idea of throwing money at some "most likely to fail" effort won't appeal to very many. An effort that won't cost anything might draw alot more support. And who knows what could grow out of a grassroots effort like that. With the internet today it sure is alot more feasable than at any time in the past. In my opinion a group like this is loooong overdue and it sure would be nice to have a little bit of attention paid to the player for once, and not just viewed as a necessary evil.

TravisVOX · 03-20-2005, 08:38 PM

swetey... drop me an email at travis@racecalling.com

andicap · 03-20-2005, 09:47 PM

How the hell are you going to do anything like this for free? That's the stupidest thing I've heard on this site for a long time and that's saying something.

Any organization has expenses. Even if someone serves as director on a volunteer basis you have to expect he/she will have to travel to meet with racetrack officials and the NTRA as well as breeder groups in Lexington. You've got office expenses of course like phones, supplies, etc. You've got to build a website to communicate with membership. There are some costs there.

Now if you meant the officers should not be paid that they should work for free and that membership fees should be modest enough -- just enough to cover necessary expenses mentioned above. Well, that might work although where you will get someone COMPETANT to spend the hours it will take to accomplish and organize something and get paid nada -- well, good luck!

And you would need somone very savvy in PR to lead this effort because without a big war chest to lobby and advertise you have to depend on free media attention and inexpensive stunts that get publicity to get anybody to listen. You would need the right person to head the group: a diplomat who can reconcile the bickering factions that are sure to make up such an associatio; someone "presentable" to the powers that be so the group is not represented by some loudmouth gadfly but a cool-headed, smooth, professionally looking executive type. Like Marvin Miller with the baseball union.

The problem is that horseplayers are too selfish and unorganized to ever get together. Look at the discord on this board alone and in this thread. Horseplayers are independent and feisty by nature. Look at all the libertarian types on this board who distrust authority.

Some horseplayer in Chicago is going to trust some group started by people he doesn't know back in New York or Boston or Columbus or Tulsa. Maybe if you got a big name involved you've got half a shot.

Look what happened when Ralph Nader tried to start such an organization for sports fans. It flopped dismisally because sports fans are just like handicappers. They are selfish and do not want to sacrifice one iota for the greater good.

If I was running such a group (no, I am NOT campaigning -- if I want to hit my head against a brick wall I can do so right at my home), I would try to organize a boycott of one track. Just one. And a major track. To show our group's clout. Because without clout you're nothing. Of course I would not publicly announce my boycott until the group was strong enough so that you could be sure it would work.
Once this group showed the tracks, NTRA, trainers, breeders, owners and all the other people ruining this game that they could bring everything crashing down by just ignoring a track or group of tracks you would bet the handicappers would get a voice,.
Look at what happened when some people boycotted GP last year. It's handle suffered. Now I know Stronach's decision to allow others to take his tracks' signals was more a result of him wanting to play nice in order to get the NY franchise, but an organized boycott that could really cripple a track's handle would put the horseplayers into the same room as the other insiders.

But until horseplayers can work together and agree to do somethinig like that they will never achieve anything.

breakage · 03-20-2005, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andicap

How the hell are you going to do anything like this for free? That's the stupidest thing I've heard on this site for a long time and that's saying something.

And you would need somone very savvy in PR to lead this effort because without a big war chest to lobby and advertise you have to depend on free media attention and inexpensive stunts that get publicity to get anybody to listen.

If I was running such a group (no, I am NOT campaigning -- if I want to hit my head against a brick wall I can do so right at my home), I would try to organize a boycott of one track. Just one. And a major track. To show our group's clout. Because without clout you're nothing. Of course I would not publicly announce my boycott until the group was strong enough so that you could be sure it would work.
Once this group showed the tracks, NTRA, trainers, breeders, owners and all the other people ruining this game that they could bring everything crashing down by just ignoring a track or group of tracks you would bet the handicappers would get a voice,.
Look at what happened when some people boycotted GP last year. It's handle suffered. Now I know Stronach's decision to allow others to take his tracks' signals was more a result of him wanting to play nice in order to get the NY franchise, but an organized boycott that could really cripple a track's handle would put the horseplayers into the same room as the other insiders.

To me saying how stupid something is and then giving examples of how things can get done for little or no money seems pretty stupid to me. Personally, I meant free to me. I didn't say totally free for everyone. You seem to be getting way ahead of yourself with all this officer and public relations expert crap. Just start it out as a simple website and see what develops. Ok ...you can resume your position under the desk of whatever track manager's desk you are under....Undercap

NoDayJob · 03-20-2005, 10:31 PM

SEZ IT ALL---

Ciao,

NDJ

Tote Master · 03-21-2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

andicap
The problem is that horseplayers are too selfish and unorganized to ever get together. Look at the discord on this board alone and in this thread. Horseplayers are independent and feisty by nature.

Please speak for yourself.
Besides they don't call it Parimutuel wagering for nothing. Unless you're smiply a spectator, its all just part of the game and naturally comes with the territiory. Of course, we all share certain personal camaraderie with those we know and trust, but that is completely different from those on a forum or even an organization.

Quote:

swetyejohn
The role of the association could be to tackle some of the biggest issues facing handicappers.
For example, a lot of handicappers have questions about how data from data providers can be used. A handicappers association could make it their goal to find the correct answer. Perhaps money for a legal fund or for a lobbyist could be raised. Perhaps the board could negotiate favorable rates for its members at hotels for the Del Mar or Saratoga meets? Perhaps the board could negotiate favorable takeout rates with various betting outlets? The list is endless

. (In My Opinion) The serious minded player would never join such an organization. It goes against everything that the game is all about. (Opinions and Money) Besides do you really think they even care about all this nonsense? It's all just another distraction. I think they would rather put their money up against another player's opinion.

Good Luck!

highnote · 03-21-2005, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tote Master

. (In My Opinion) The serious minded player would never join such an organization. It goes against everything that the game is all about. (Opinions and Money) Besides do you really think they even care about all this nonsense? It's all just another distraction. I think they would rather put their money up against another player's opinion.

Good Luck!

My whole point is that I hear and read a lot of complaining, but do not see or hear much in the way of action. The situation is not so bad that handicappers will ever organize. Once it awhile you may see someone rise up and make some noise, but honestly, life is pretty good for most of us. Racing, like baseball, is really pretty trivial in the big scheme of things. It's entertainment -- it's Vaudeville. We're just the actors. I don't think enough of us are suffering so greatly as to need a handicapper organization.

I spout off on some things I don't like about the industry, but it's not important enough for me to go out and try to change the way things are done. I'll just complain like the rest of us. Take Equibase... I wish they wouldn't go to a PDF format. I think they are probably acting in a monopolistic fashion. But do I care enough to do anything about it? Not really. I rarely buy any kind of racing data. When I bet at AmericaTab I can get free pps -- which I have never taken the time to download. When I play the Magna Pick5 I get free pps. I like looking at Equibase HTML charts in EXCEL, but if they go to PDF then I will find other ways to win. Or maybe I'll bet in the stock market. There is more free past performance data there to be downloaded than could ever be studied. It's also an easier game to beat.

For some reason this industry seems intent on driving away it's customers. There is so much competition for the gambling dollar, I really don't understand why they don't cater to us bettors.

I'm not an insider and I don't know how much Equibase makes from selling it's data. It's hard for me to believe that there are enough people downloading their free charts that it has an effect on their bottom line. So there is probably more to it than we know at this point.

Then again, maybe all those touts and system sellers they employ bring in a lot of cash? Maybe they figure that if I can't get HTML charts I'll start buying something like their ChartPlus files -- the ones with the little animated horses -- the ones I can't get to load because there is some kind of problem with Microsoft Java Virtual Machine.

BTW, does anyone use ChartPlus? Are they useful?

hurrikane · 03-21-2005, 03:45 PM

OK, I"ll do it.

Send me your money...

JPinMaryland · 03-21-2005, 04:11 PM

I think it can indeed be started for "free". The internet is "free" isnt it? I mean okay you pay for the service, but once you've done that you've got all this information out there on the internet for free...

What is the internet anything more than swapping information? That's all it really is if all you ever do is pay for internet service. Tons of information, no longer any need to go the library, buy an encylopedia, buy cook books, etc.

Lots of benefit to be had be swapping information. Otherwise the internet would never have taken off in the first place. Agreed?

Okay then, what can handicappers benefit from? Swapping information. Wow do you see a connection: Internet: swapping information; handicappers: swapping information?

To build a handicapping organization start out small at first. Fight one battle. One small battle that you can win. Like the colonists fighting Lexington and Concord or M.L.King organzing the bus boycott.

First battle: establish daily track variants at all the major track by organizing handicappers on the internet. In one fell swoop you singlehandely render the DRF obsolete. What else do beyer speed figs provide other than a daily variant?

We all know the final times. Most of the fractional times are published or can be figured from beaten lenghts.

Par times are known from published sources.

All beyer speed figs does is figure the daily variant. Once you establish a network of handicappers who can post verifiably accurate daily track variants you will render most of that stuff in the DRF as obsolete.

THat's a huge economic factor right there. You win that battle and your handicapper network will grow by leaps and bounds.

highnote · 03-21-2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPinMaryland

I think it can indeed be started for "free". .....

THat's a huge economic factor right there. You win that battle and your handicapper network will grow by leaps and bounds.

Yeah, but for 75 bucks a month you can download unlimited comma-delimited charts from ITS. That kind of renders one of the functions of the handicapper's association unneccessary.

JPinMaryland · 03-21-2005, 06:15 PM

two questions: does that data include daily variants? 2) is that data legally available to be re-used to make figures? what are the terms?

highnote · 03-21-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPinMaryland

two questions: does that data include daily variants? 2) is that data legally available to be re-used to make figures? what are the terms?

Looks like you can use it any way you want.

You can go to itsdata.com and check out the fine print and check out what fields are in the comma-delimited data files.

iggy · 03-21-2005, 07:28 PM

. (In My Opinion) The serious minded player would never join such an organization. It goes against everything that the game is all about. (Opinions and Money) Besides do you really think they even care about all this nonsense? It's all just another distraction. I think they would rather put their money up against another player's opinion.

I guess Groucho Marx was right: "I wouldn't want to join a club that whould have me as a member"

iggy