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12-18-2012, 09:11 PM
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#181
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 14,036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
1-Add up the populations of the countries listed in and around Europe. Don't forget to include Asian Pacific countries like Japan, Australia and New Zealand. Tell me what the rate of all homicides per 100,000 by firearm is.
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Your data is skewed somewhat and not presented honestly. The link between gun ownership and higher homicide rates is marginal at best and certainly not outside any margin where other factors need to be considered. Here is the exact same graph SteveR posted to proper scale using OECD data.
Source:
Charts Based on Wiki Data
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12-18-2012, 09:27 PM
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#182
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 14,036
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FWIW the murder rate in the United States has also dropped since the AWB in 2004 expired and every year since 2006.
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12-18-2012, 09:27 PM
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#183
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
What the rights of those 20 children and 6 adults that died because inadequate gun laws? Did not the government take away their rights by failing to act in what is now an all too apparent danger ...
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OK, what should the government do? Repeal the 2nd Amendment?? A great way to start another Civil War in this country!! There are MILLIONS of these guns already "out there". What do you suggest... have SWAT teams going door to door, and collect them all? Hmmm... Randy Weaver. Ruby Ridge. I agree some action is necessary, just a bit tough to change 200 years of American culture.
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How many more times does it have too happen before action is taken? I mean real action, not just crazy talk about impractical things like putting armed guards at every school, movie theater , shopping mall
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Before we dismiss ideas as "crazy", what is your solution? What is your cost effective, practical, alternative ?? Again... the idea is to have a designated 1st Responder at each school, with access to a weapon, trained by local Law Enforcement. I agree hiring armed guards is NOT workable or cost effective, in most situations.
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So we shouldn't have glass windows or doors in our schools. And we should arm our teachers. Those are the crazy ideas. An armed guard at the door would have just gotten the guard killed and prevented nothing..
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Again if you're following the news... the concept is having ONE gun available to a 1st Responder at each school. Even having the gun stashed in a hidden floor safe, it would take just a couple minutes to retrieve a pistol. It is estimated at Sandy Hook the shooter was firing away for well over 10 minutes. IF the Principal was able to retrieve a weapon she likely could have saved most of those kids.
In Oregon, it has been revealed that the Clackamas Mall shooter was interrupted by an armed citizen who waved a pistol, and made eye contact before taking cover. Apparently that spooked the guy after he sprayed his 1st clip... 100 people around that Food Court... it might have been the reason only TWO were murdered here.
__________________
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The Dogs = Man's Best Bet!
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12-18-2012, 09:28 PM
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#184
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,131
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I read that some parents are pressing authorities to let them view the crime area. The authorities are reluctant. How/why can this request be denied?
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12-18-2012, 09:45 PM
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#185
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Racing Form Detective
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincoln, Ne but my heart is at Santa Anita
Posts: 16,316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybase
OK, what should the government do? Repeal the 2nd Amendment?? A great way to start another Civil War in this country!! There are MILLIONS of these guns already "out there". What do you suggest... have SWAT teams going door to door, and collect them all? Hmmm... Randy Weaver. Ruby Ridge. I agree some action is necessary, just a bit tough to change 200 years of American culture.
Before we dismiss ideas as "crazy", what is your solution? What is your cost effective, practical, alternative ?? Again... the idea is to have a designated 1st Responder at each school, with access to a weapon, trained by local Law Enforcement. I agree hiring armed guards is NOT workable or cost effective, in most situations.
Again if you're following the news... the concept is having ONE gun available to a 1st Responder at each school. Even having the gun stashed in a hidden floor safe, it would take just a couple minutes to retrieve a pistol. It is estimated at Sandy Hook the shooter was firing away for well over 10 minutes. IF the Principal was able to retrieve a weapon she likely could have saved most of those kids.
In Oregon, it has been revealed that the Clackamas Mall shooter was interrupted by an armed citizen who waved a pistol, and made eye contact before taking cover. Apparently that spooked the guy after he sprayed his 1st clip... 100 people around that Food Court... it might have been the reason only TWO were murdered here.
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The principal, Dawn Hocksprung, was one of, if not the first victim of the shooter. She would have had no time to retrieve a gun from a place that would not been available to the kids. It is too bad that some posters don't even bother to check the facts before they post a dumb and impossible idea.
__________________
Some day in the not too distant future, horse players will betting on computer generated races over the net. Race tracks will become casinos and shopping centers. And some crooner will be belting out "there used to be a race track here".
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12-18-2012, 10:05 PM
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#186
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
The principal, Dawn Hocksprung, was one of, if not the first victim of the shooter. She would have had no time to retrieve a gun from a place that would not been available to the kids.
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From news reports I have read, she was killed after running into the hall, unarmed, and lunging at the shooter.. after he shot his way into the building. Obviously in the proposed scenario, she (or another of the 6 adults killed), would retrieve a gun BEFORE engaging the shooter.
I'm trying to decipher your sentence above. Kids were in classrooms, NOT in the Principal's office. Or other back office areas. The idea being discussed is to have a designated 1st Responder trained, to return fire ASAP.
Quote:
It is too bad that some posters don't even bother to check the facts before they post a dumb and impossible idea.
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Still waiting for your smart, workable, practical idea... got one?
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The Dogs = Man's Best Bet!
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12-18-2012, 10:38 PM
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#187
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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This message is from the National Alliance on Mental Illness -- Ohio chapter -- http://www.namiohio.org/
(I bolded certain parts -- change at the local level is important -- the feds don't always need to get involved. Mandates from the federal level is what leads to wasted money.)
Quote:
The NAMI Ohio family grieves for the children and families of Connecticut impacted by the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Despite considerable speculation, there has been no real information as to whether Adam Lanza had a mental illness or if his family sought mental health services. However, with the focus on mental illness, this is a good time to remind the public about the prevalence of mental illness and the need for more services and supports for those living with it every day.
What we can say with certainty is that mental illness exists in every state, every city and every neighborhood in the U.S. One in 4 adults experiences a mental health disorder in a given year. One in 17 lives with a serious mental illness and 1 in 10 children has a serious mental or emotional disorder. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and one-half of children with a diagnosed mental disorder receive mental health services in a given year. There are many reasons for this, including:
• Lack of knowledge about mental illness
• Stigma of mental illness deters people from seeking help
• Individuals and families don’t know that treatment works or where to go for help
• When individuals or families do seek help, the services are frequently not available.
Over a decade ago, the Surgeon General concluded in a report that “the overall contribution of mental disorders to the total level of violence in society is exceptionally small.” However, when violence does occur, it is usually because something has gone terribly wrong in the mental health care system. Either something has fallen short or something hasn’t happened at all.
It is hard to think of any good that might come out of this tragedy. However, we would be remiss if we did not call attention to the mental health crisis our country is facing, to confront hurtful stereotypes, to take steps to learn more about mental illness, and to ensure that people have access to the care and treatment they need.
NAMI Ohio will be requesting an audience with Governor Kasich to discuss the many issues that individuals with mental illness and their families face every day and the NEED FOR CHANGE.
To this end, we recommend the following action:
* The Governor prioritize funding to increase the continuity of housing options for individuals with mental illness, including long term and transitional secure residential care. Too many people with serious mental illness are living on the streets because there are not enough supportive housing options available. Many individuals end up in jail or prison unnecessarily because they have no place to go that has sufficient supervision.
* Allocate additional resources to communities to meet the mental health needs of children and their families. Too many families are still being required to give up custody to get their child into residential treatment. Youth who require a high level of care are winding up in the juvenile justice system, and young people are falling through the cracks as they transition into adulthood.
* Clarify the Ohio Revised Code to give judges the ability to court order outpatient treatment. Because of the ambiguity in Ohio’s statute pertaining to a judge’s ability to court-order outpatient treatment, only a handful of probate court judge’s order outpatient treatment. Other judges believe they are only allowed to court order into the hospital.
* Create a formal mechanism for individuals with mental illness and family members to communicate their needs to their local ADAMH Boards. Their recommendations will lead to real change at the local level.
Violent tragedies should not have to occur before the country realizes that mental health care must be a priority. NAMI Ohio represents thousands of Ohioans living with mental illness. We are parents. We are friends. We are individuals living with these illnesses. We get it. We’ve been there.
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12-18-2012, 11:01 PM
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#188
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,402
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Damn it Goren, you deleted your post before I could quote it!
__________________
"You make me feel like I am fun again."
-Robert James Smith, 1989
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12-18-2012, 11:36 PM
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#189
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Racing Form Detective
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincoln, Ne but my heart is at Santa Anita
Posts: 16,316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith
Damn it Goren, you deleted your post before I could quote it!
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I delete the previous post because I felt it poorly worded and would be misinterpreted by some. I will say this much. The idea these incidents could prevent by giving another person another gun whether they want it or not is crazy. If I had young kids I would not let them go to school where guns were left unattended no matter how secure the teachers and/or principal think they are. Of all the dumb ideas out there, that is the dumbest. The danger of having guns around a lot of small kids is just asking for tragedy. This from a person who started hunting at 12 and quit at 17 when a friend died in a hunting accident. Sometimes the danger makes it not worth the pleasure even when the people involved are both sane and reasonably knowledgeable.
I do believe that there is a lot of types of guns that should not be available to the general public. They have no use for the general public except for target practice. The risk that one will fall into to hands of a mass murder is too great. We do not now allow people to have a bomb. I know that some fools make them and try to use them, but over a long period of time the number of time the people who die from them is very small when compared to those who die from the legal guns.
__________________
Some day in the not too distant future, horse players will betting on computer generated races over the net. Race tracks will become casinos and shopping centers. And some crooner will be belting out "there used to be a race track here".
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12-18-2012, 11:45 PM
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#190
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
I delete the previous post because I felt it poorly worded and would be misinterpreted by some....
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I understand, and honestly, this post is much better. There are a lot of things in the revised version that I don't disagree with much, if at all.
__________________
"You make me feel like I am fun again."
-Robert James Smith, 1989
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12-19-2012, 09:13 AM
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#191
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 14,397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goren
I hope all of you who want to put armed people in our schools are ready to come up with the dollars to do it because it going to be expensive, very expensive.
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All too often the liberal response is downright too fast and wrong, even conservatives slip and fall into that trap. For starters putting guns inside the school just seems plain wrong because it is too reactive a solution. Follow with me on this just for a bit for logistics.
I think the police do a fine job as keepers of the peace and are sworn to serve.
That being said I do not see that they actually belong inside the schools because that is "too late for today, and too early for tomorrow".
The solution is easy to have them in cars at the parking area and restrict cars from driving right up to the door of a school. This is a easily managed solution that says Dunkin Donuts is not the police substation and the school is. Inside the school normal personnel who work there would be able to receive calls from units outside monitoring the parking and the walkway from the parking to the school.
This is not a added cost to the community at all, it is just a refocus of assets.
It is perfect for the men and women who are sworn to protect and serve, and in my mind more worthy than the local Wal Mart. We live in a day where you can not please everyone and sometimes because of that no one, but this is how I see this playing out in the long run.
Last edited by fast4522; 12-19-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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12-19-2012, 09:23 AM
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#192
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The Voice of Reason!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canandaigua, New york
Posts: 112,446
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It now appears as though his mother was going to have him committed and he was not happy about it.
He also took specific actions to cover himself, so "snapping" might not be what happened.
__________________
Who does the Racing Form Detective like in this one?
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12-19-2012, 09:39 AM
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#193
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: central fla.
Posts: 4,874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast4522
All too often the liberal response is downright too fast and wrong, even conservatives slip and fall into that trap. For starters putting guns inside the school just seems plain wrong because it is too reactive a solution. Follow with me on this just for a bit for logistics.
I think the police do a fine job as keepers of the peace and are sworn to serve.
The solution is easy to have them in cars at the parking area and restrict cars from driving right up to the door of a school. This is a easily managed solution that says Dunkin Donuts is not the police substation and the school is. Inside the school normal personnel who work there would be able to receive calls from units outside monitoring the parking and the walkway from the parking to the school.
This is not a added cost to the community at all, it is just a refocus of assets.
It is perfect for the men and women who are sworn to protect and serve, and in my mind more worthy than the local Wal Mart.
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Well written...well said...and too DAMN logical...somebody ain't making out W/this solution...never let a good crisis go to waste...so it won't happen in this scenerio
__________________
got handed a lemon...make lemonade....add sugar or brown sugar or stevia or my personal favorite....miracle fruit....google it...thank me later...
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12-19-2012, 11:48 AM
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#194
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Racing Form Detective
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Lincoln, Ne but my heart is at Santa Anita
Posts: 16,316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast4522
All too often the liberal response is downright too fast and wrong, even conservatives slip and fall into that trap. For starters putting guns inside the school just seems plain wrong because it is too reactive a solution. Follow with me on this just for a bit for logistics.
I think the police do a fine job as keepers of the peace and are sworn to serve.
That being said I do not see that they actually belong inside the schools because that is "too late for today, and too early for tomorrow".
The solution is easy to have them in cars at the parking area and restrict cars from driving right up to the door of a school. This is a easily managed solution that says Dunkin Donuts is not the police substation and the school is. Inside the school normal personnel who work there would be able to receive calls from units outside monitoring the parking and the walkway from the parking to the school.
This is not a added cost to the community at all, it is just a refocus of assets.
It is perfect for the men and women who are sworn to protect and serve, and in my mind more worthy than the local Wal Mart. We live in a day where you can not please everyone and sometimes because of that no one, but this is how I see this playing out in the long run.
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As somebody who used off duty police officers, I can assure you there nothing cheap about it. If there is one at the local Walmart or A bar or whatever, Walmart, the bar owner or whomever is paying for it. Right now the local police almost everywhere are stretched to the limit. If you going put an officer in a school and there are a lot of public schools between grade schools, moddle schools and high schools. And then there is bunch more private faith based schools too. In Lincoln, Ne where I live, putting officer in each school would take up about 20% of the the total force. Then there is all the other place where nuts have open fire like movie theater, shopping malls and even a congresswoman's town hall meeting. You are as crazy as one of the shooters if you think you can do it on the cheap.
__________________
Some day in the not too distant future, horse players will betting on computer generated races over the net. Race tracks will become casinos and shopping centers. And some crooner will be belting out "there used to be a race track here".
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12-21-2012, 05:10 PM
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#195
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,861
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There are comparisons and contrasts that can be made between Newtown and Waco. There is one that is sticking out in my mind:
In the Waco seige (or massacre, as some call it), 16 children under the age of 10 died. 20 kids died in Newtown. In Waco, Seventy-six men, women and children died in total, but I do not recall Americans being asked to pause for a moment of silence even one time for the Waco victims.
Yet, in contrast, I have been asked to pause for a moment of silence at least three times this week for Newtown victims (which, by the way, is appropriate and meaningful).
Does anyone here recall being asked to pause for a moment of silence for the Waco victims?
When innocent people die en masse should the circumstances under which they died be a factor in whether or not a moment of silence should be requested?
Last edited by highnote; 12-21-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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