Keeping actual physical racetracks alive--attendance

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Originally Posted by thespaah

SImple, they will spend money while there.
Ok....Let's say one can bet casino style on line...They can also get the same action at the facility. The differnce is the on-line player gets to wager. The in site player gets an experience. He is offered perks like free drinks, food, meals, etc.
The tracks need to cater to high rollers by giving them perks for showing up.
Perks also can go a long way to attracting new people as well.
Offer them a place to go and have a good time and offer incentives to get them through the door and incentives to keep them there for a few hours. Then offer them incentives to come back.

Most big players I know bet a lot less when they go to a track live, because of distractions.
That and the fact that you don't want these people shut out ever, the cost to cater to them far outweighs luring them to the track.

[chickenhead]

just from a pure "have more people in the stands" point of view, ignoring anything else (including whether its really overall beneficial or doable) -- in no particular order:


1.) Relatively short meets have more of an "event" quality to them than near year round meets. It makes people notice, advertising is easier, etc.

2.) Less weekday racing, primarily Friday Night, Saturday, Sunday.

3.) Markets without every sort of major sports franchise should be easier to draw to than markets with NBA AND NFL AND MLB AND NHL AND Soccer, etc.

4.) Shorten the time between races to as low as theoretically possible.

5.) Find better ways to really push creation of fractional ownership on track, perhaps even as giveaways. It's a unique advantage that horse racing has, and one known iron clad reason that will cause people to talk horseracing and bring their friends and family to the track.

6.) Make grandstands smaller at most places, you don't need seating for 50K.
Make the remaining more comfortable, i.e. First Class vs. Coach.

7.) Normal food franchises, Starbucks, Subway, Five Guys Burgers, etc.

[Jeff P]

This is for California:

Offer a 50% of takeout rebate on track only with a 25% takeout rebate at Satellite only.

There is no doubt in my mind that on track handle would go up by 4times at least.

Anyone who normally churns 5k or more a day would be foolish not to go to the live track or at least Satellite. There are quite a few people who churn 10k a day and it would certainly make sense to make the trip to the track and maybe stay the weekend.

ADW's would be opposed to this of course so that would create problems.

Andy, that's a good idea. But it's only the first step.

The one thing standing in the way of this being a success (at least in California) is a state law (we can thank the TOC and a handful of track operators) limiting the number of out of state races that can be simulcast each day.

For the serious player, playing on track in California means wagering opportunities each day become severely limited compared to playing elsewhere. All too often races the player wants to bet aren't available on track.

Now if California tracks went after a change in state law so they could offer competitive pricing on track AND full card simulcasting:

THEN they at least put themselves in position to earn back the business of players they have been alienating for years.


-jp

.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Andy, that's a good idea. But it's only the first step.

The one thing standing in the way of this being a success (at least in California) is a state law (we can thank the TOC and a handful of track operators) limiting the number of out of state races that can be simulcast each day.

For the serious player, playing on track in California means wagering opportunities each day become severely limited compared to playing elsewhere. All too often races the player wants to bet aren't available on track.

Now if California tracks went after a change in state law so they could offer competitive pricing on track AND full card simulcasting:

THEN they at least put themselves in position to earn back the business of players they have been alienating for years.


-jp

.

These laws and rules made up by people with short term interests and big egos need to be called out and hammered until things are changed.

You can put pressure on them through phone calls, emails, guest spots on several radio shows. There are more and more people talking about this stuff and we are close to seeing a change.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Andy, that's a good idea. But it's only the first step.

The one thing standing in the way of this being a success (at least in California) is a state law (we can thank the TOC and a handful of track operators) limiting the number of out of state races that can be simulcast each day.

For the serious player, playing on track in California means wagering opportunities each day become severely limited compared to playing elsewhere. All too often races the player wants to bet aren't available on track.

Now if California tracks went after a change in state law so they could offer competitive pricing on track AND full card simulcasting:

THEN they at least put themselves in position to earn back the business of players they have been alienating for years.


-jp

.

Calif has no idea how much money they've cost themselves by not having full card simo. When they do eventually get full card in Calif, they'll say "gulp, what were were thinking"

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Yeah, no one bets on NFL games....

You didnt' read what i said carefully.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Horseplayersbet.com

Most big players I know bet a lot less when they go to a track live, because of distractions.
That and the fact that you don't want these people shut out ever, the cost to cater to them far outweighs luring them to the track.

Please explain how it is that this very method, offering pewrks to high rollers. works in casinos?
Let's forget for a moment that you may be partial to stay at home on line players.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by Horseplayersbet.com

Most big players I know bet a lot less when they go to a track live, because of distractions.
That and the fact that you don't want these people shut out ever, the cost to cater to them far outweighs luring them to the track.

What distractions? To my knowledge most big players have higher levels of concentration and do not use areas of tracks that are open to the general public.
Look, the way I see it is someone heads to the track with a significant bankroll with the single minded mission of ROI, they are not going to hang out on the outdoor apron surrounded by spit swapping teenaged couples and hordes of kids running around throwing gum at each other.

[karlskorner]

As I left CRC this evening I was happy to see parking lots that haven't been used since the late 70's nearly filled up.
This has been going on weekends for the past couple months. No question the new casinio has alot to do with it, but the Grandstand was alive with players.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Please explain how it is that this very method, offering pewrks to high rollers. works in casinos?
Let's forget for a moment that you may be partial to stay at home on line players.

We are talking two different animals here. A casino high roller can come and go as they please, while the big horse racing bettor is tied into event times. Focus is very important and many big Horseplayers rely on computer programs to determine bets. It makes little sense for them to change and bet at the windows, especially if they are value players.



Also, the motivation for one casino to get a high roller is much different than a track getting one. A casino is competing with other casinos, while the track is just competing with an ADW most likely, and for many reasons, the ADW will win out (travel, convenience of betting on the internet, especially if bets are computer generated and dependent on odds).

[WinterTriangle]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Andy, that's a good idea.
.

It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

How many people in business offer that to their customers? What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

Just asking, as if you think it's a good idea for You as a Customer, you would have to think it's a good idea for your Customer as You running a business.

Increasing track handle at the risk of going bankrupt isn't a good idea.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by WinterTriangle

This is something that perplexes me and I've wanted to discuss.

With gambling becoming more of a "sit behind your computer" or simulcast activity ala Wall Street, which is fine, but a lot of people simply don't go to the track anymore.

So, we are constantly having conversations about crumbling infrastrcutures or (taken from another topic):



Then we talk about not wanting casinos at racetracks.

What I'm wondering is, if people don't actually GO to the track, then we really can't have these huge physical structures, buildiings and bathrooms and seats and such, looking like ghost-towns.

It's waste of real estate and infrastructure.

Mabye the reason racing "customers" aren't put first is because there are so few of them --- I mean, people have to be somewhere to get treated like honored guests. Catering to a population that is *tiny* isn't something practical.

My idea is that track facilities that don't have casinos may be practically lying dormant since everyone is betting with software and offshore and with AWDs. To keep racing alive you have to keep tracks where the horses are running alive. They can't be falling apart, and they can't be ghostowns.

Maybe they should just close some of them if they no longer have any physical attendance.

In Japan, they are packing huge stadium like buildings. But if betting behind a computer at home is what horse racing has become for some, then there really is no reason to have huge racetrack facilities, is there????? Why pay for building maintenance and landscaping and such? You can't pay for lights, A/C, heat, fast food employees, clerks, elevator people......if there are no actual human beings INSIDE your facility!

In those places, if there is no casino, and therefore, not enough actual foot-traffic on a regular basis, perhaps they should either close tem, , or have the actual horse track itself remain, but build other stuff around it, like the build gated communities, lakes and parks around golf courses. There could still be barns, and horses on the track to be broadcast on TV and to your computer screen, but you don't need *seats* for customers if there aren't any *customers* sitting in them?????????

Explain this to me and give feedback. It's not an opinion so much as a scenario that passes in my mind at times.

Personally, I don't think racing will ever experience any kind of "rebirth" until it is attended, in person, as a form of entertainment, where families can go for the day, just as they would go to a water park. In Japan, they have this. If we don't, then something needs to be done. Horseplayers who don't go to the track can't very well expect them to stay open, can they?

I don't quite get it myself.

I mean I didn't get into racing til 1996.But being there is 10 months of live racing here in the Cincinnati tristate I cannot imagine being offtrack unless it is snowing or as has been the recent case,I'm being run the hell out of certain places at the track,where mind ya,are the best vantage points for someone with a pair of binoculars and is actually interested in watching races instead of drinking beer.

But I was at the track today,soaking up the sun,talking to all the familiar faces,looking at some horseflesh and some womanflesh,BS'in about the races beyond the "Who do ya like" routine and it's great.I got involved in one of the best conversations about a race and the turf condition and breeding and pace setup ever.The bunch of us drove a 11-1 shot down to 7-2 but we all whooped and hollered when she won by 10+ lengths.The collective consciousness and a few laughs to boot=awesome!!

And more importantly irreplaceable.I like to be able to talk to trainers and jockeys at times too.And they love to rap about it also.I like to see horses up close at 2 years old and see a 1-2 shot that looks like Sugar Ray Leonard vs an Ali and bet against it when it has credentials.I like to bounce ideas off of other handicappers and point out biases in the day.I don't see it as myself vs the world,a Wizard of Oz behind the computer.It's cool to share insight,winning,and enjoy the experience.Today in the summer sun was a blast with like minds!!

I love when September comes when I can watch from home if I want.But there is nothing greater than hanging with those of your own ilk.And it doesn't have to be at the temple of Saratoga etc etc.Although I hope I can meet up with you all in August.

But WT,the way they run things.Not wanting to hire $10hr workers to maintain a place on certain weekday racedays,basically shutting down parts of the facility.It is weak.They cry for their slot machines,yet don't cater to who actually shows up.They may as well tear em down and just have a picnic ground there with betting machines.It's pathetic to the highest degree.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by WinterTriangle

It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

How many people in business offer that to their customers? What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

Just asking, as if you think it's a good idea for You as a Customer, you would have to think it's a good idea for your Customer as You running a business.

Increasing track handle at the risk of going bankrupt isn't a good idea.

Before I answer your specific questions (and I will) I want to try to preface the state of racing as a going concern... First in my own words:

If you take all sources handle as it existed 7 years ago in 2003 and adjust it for inflation - and then compare it to all sources handle as it exists today in 2010 - you will find that handle in 2010 is approximately HALF of what it was just 7 years ago in 2003.

Perhaps this gentleman said it better than I possibly can... Here's a quote from Lamboguy as posted in another thread:

...i am buying horses this year for about $7500 each that would have cost $75,000 3 years ago. only difference is that 3 years ago the world would be beating down my doors to buy the horses. today nobody is interested, so i run them and then sell them if they turn out good for less money than what people would have paid for on a guess 3 years ago. that is the reality of the business, lack of interest. keep going on and on with unexplained results, bad tests, and after the bell bettors and see what you have left 2 years from now. there will be lots more ghost towns in racetracks througout america. racing loves to bame the economy instead of blaming themselves. its the easy way out like they have taken the last 30 years. the game has offered the least amount of effort as a whole to maintain itself. its like a leaky roof, you can only patch the baby for so long and then it collapses on your head.

Simply put:

Racing is in serious trouble. The status quo isn't working. If we keep to the status quo for another 7 years, I'll make the argument that we can expect handle in 2017 to be HALF of what it is today... Let me put that another way: Handle in 2017 will be ONE QUARTER of what it was in 2003.

Last fall, we at HANA commissioned statistician Dan Needham to prepare a 50 question comprehensive survey which we asked our then 1300 horseplayer members to take. Needham designed the survey in such a way that answers could be correlated against each other to determine statistical relevance. The survey was comprehensive in nature and took nearly 30 minutes to complete. 510 HANA members took the time to complete the survey in full.

When we started to tabulate the results, it became obvious to us that this survey was significant because it represented true market research targeted at racing's core customer base.

The results were eye opening even to us. The results told us very clearly what factors drive horseplayers to bet more and what factors drive horseplayers to bet less.

The three most important factors driving horseplayer betting behavior (handle) are:

1. Takeout - It's too high relative to other forms of gambling with which racing must compete. The degree to which it is too high relative to other forms of gambling has created a public that no longer sees racing as an attractive gamlbing game. The result has been declines in handle as racing loses its customer base to the other forms of gambling that racing competes with.

2. Pool Integrity - Odds that change after the bell are no longer acceptable in this day and age. There is enough public distrust of the tote system that handle is being negatively impacted.

3. Drug Integrity - Horse racing is a gambling game. All gambling games need to be regulated in such a way that the integrity of the game is beyond reproach. Because of drugs - specifically the lack of enforcement - There is enough public distrust about the honesty of the game that handle is being severely negatively impacted.


SWEEPING changes are needed in order to turn things around.

Every time I sit down with racing decision makers: track management, horsemen, racing commissioners, or lawmakers to talk about changes that are needed to turn racing around - the last thing they want to do is ACT to address high takeout, pool integrity, or drug integrity in any meaningful way.

I view it as simple economics. Until or unless each of the above three issues are addressed in a meaningful way, handle will continue its downward spiral.

To be continued...

-jp

.

[comet52]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

the last thing they want to do is ACT to address high takeout, pool integrity, or drug integrity in any meaningful way.

Then it should die out. We don't need horse racing socialism in the form of state subsidies to "create jobs". Tax me to keep Joe Horseman in business? No thanks. Slots are fine with me even though others object. If the industry can prop itself up that way, good for them.

What is "pool integrity"? Are you saying there is past-posting going on? Because a tote system that has to process bets/cancels coming from all over the nation, many at the last minute, over wide area networks that simply aren't instantaneous at all times, on systems that may be antiquated, isn't going to deliver a final price at post time, unless you cut off the system earlier.

And that won't change the fact that odds you bet at cutoff time, whatever it may be, won't be final odds, unless you develop a nationwide instant tote system with infallible communications networks and software, etc.

I don't see how a slow processing system constitutes a question of "integrity." If you have proof of cheating then integrity is a question.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by WinterTriangle

It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

How many people in business offer that to their customers? What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

Just asking, as if you think it's a good idea for You as a Customer, you would have to think it's a good idea for your Customer as You running a business.

Increasing track handle at the risk of going bankrupt isn't a good idea.

I'll try answering your specific questions one at a time:

You asked:
It's a good idea to offer a 50% rebate?

My reply:
A 50% rebate? No.

A 50% on track takeout reduction?

Absolutely and without question: Yes.

The racing product is drastically overpriced. A 50% takeout reduction for on track patrons sends the right message to the customer AND to horsemen.

First, it gives the customer an incentive to play on track again. Where do horsemen get the most bang for the customer dollar purse-wise? Wagers made on track.


You asked:
How many people in business offer that to their customers?

My reply:
Lots of businesses offer pricing discounts. Why? Because it works.

Even racing offers volume discounts in the form of rebates. And it works too.

If you think a 50% takeout reduction is too much, consider this: Currently, most players can find equal or better takeout reductions online in the form of rebates. Example: Trifecta takeout at Penn National is 31%. (IMHO, that's borderline criminal.)

Even at modest handle levels, most players who take the time to seek out rebates can expect to find rebates on a trifecta at that track in the 15-20% range.

My answer is that racing is already offering significant discounts to the price sensitive player. Why not offer the same kind of discount on track?



You asked:
What kinds of % discounts are you offering your real "good" customers in YOUR business?

My reply:
Funny you should ask that.

My "good" customers get to pick my brain in a great many areas. If my "good" customers give me a good idea, they can expect to find their good idea added to the JCapper program for FREE.

But as long as we're talking about discounted pricing...

I'm in the process of reshaping JCapper and emphasizing a completely different revenue model.

Instead of emphasizing JCapper Platinum, a high end software program that retails for $695.00, as of 8/1/2010 the emphasis will shift to JCapper Silver, a program with the following catch phase: Genuine JCapper Software at an Affordable Price.

JCapper Silver Product Description:
http://www.jcapper.com/JCapperSilverProductDescr.asp

JCapper Silver Pre Launch Announcement:
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=72172

As I type out this post, JCapper Silver hasn't even been released yet. But in the past 7-10 days I've started to receive checks in the mail from customers who are pre ordering it. I can honestly say that the revenue from JCapper Silver pre orders over the past 7-10 days has surpassed expectations. Based on what I've seen so far, it's a safe bet that the day will soon come when JCapper Silver revenue far outstrips revenue from sales of JCapper Platinum.


-jp

.