Will Justify get DQ'd?

[clicknow]

Let's go over the vehicle of contamination again.

esp. since Justify received such a high reading that would suggest administration, not casual environmental contamination, because 4x the threshold isn't casual.


From the Bloodhorse article: "On Nov. 14, 2016, the CHRB issued a warning that jimson weed had been found in bedding straw, and because the weed can contain scopolamine, it could lead to a post-race positive because of contamination."

From what I hear, Baffert doesn't bed on straw. He uses bags of shavings.



So it was either the feed or the hay. You'd think in a high level barn and with horse going into Derby qual that everything would be checked over very carefullly, including not allowing any kind of supplements to BE in the feed, which may hurt the horse, cause it to test positive, etc.

If you're in the backside in these situations everyone is extremely vigilant.

Baffert has knowingly "dosed" horses before, with Thryo-L and so it seems like he's interested in these odd substances and what they do to horses.

[bobphilo]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

too far after the fact AND racing does NOT need any more scandal right now

We already have the scandal and the last thing we need is a cover-up. We can't un-ring the bell.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

We aren't in court here. You claimed that Justify was clean in the TC. We don't know that. We only know he passed whatever tests were administered.

Be aware that a test is not considered the only competent evidence of doping, even in court. Any number of track athletes have been suspended or disqualified despite passing their drug tests, based on medical records, eyewitness testimony, and other competent forms of evidence.

Indeed, it is VERY important that nobody get sucked into "anyone who passes a test is clean". That has nothing to do with due process and is not a legal standard. It's basically an invitation for people to just go ahead and circumvent drug tests in whatever way possible.

What should happen- but of course won't- is a full inquiry of Justify's entire career. Let's get people on the record. Obviously someone leaked this inquiry to Joe Drape. Maybe there's some veterinary assistant out there who is willing to say what really went on.

But no way am I going to declare this horse clean in all his other races. At BEST, he hasn't been conclusively proven dirty yet.

I think this is a very important statement. Certainly if one were in a court of law for sure.

[rastajenk]

This is the moment dilanesp has been waiting for: for a guy (presumably) known to have to have the last word, this is in his wheelhouse and could on for weeks...months....years.

[clicknow]

so apparently 7 other horses at SA tested positive for same substance, which is what CHRB used (after the fact) to justify their actions.

Until we know exactly what those levels were, we have no basis for comparison.

Meanwhile, Dr. Arthur gives his "opinions" on the matter. This is the same Dr. Arthur who is the medical director for the CHRB, the very organization who has acted with impropriety.


If a proper investigation were done, a dozen independent experts in the field of testing and veterinary science would be brought in to comment on Dr Arthur's opinion/conclusions.



Look, I know a lot of people and also many I don't know, who work very hard day in day out in a tough business/sport to do things right. By not properly investigating things, when the cheaters are allowed to get away without detection and/or penalties, it causes an entire business/sport to be disrepected, which the larger % of people in it simply do not deserve. To get up every day and give your all, only to realize that everything you do and everything you are associated with, is disrespected....I can't support that. My participation in the sport as a fan hardly compares to something like that, I mean, I can "handle" the misunderstood embarassment that others may heap on me for merely betting and being a fan. It's not my life's work.

The KY Derby is something you earn your way into. You are not cheated into it by a state racing board and any possibility of a trainer who is too big to fail and a board who makes decisions behind closed doors and engages in other improprieties that begins to look like protection of such trainers, needs to be taken seriously. NOT to target anyone, but to make sure that those who are participating honestly in their life's work aren't looked at with derision and disadmiration.

[46zilzal]

Keeping in line with the absence of making any effort o help reverse the public perception of there racing game, I suggest they will do little to nothing LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN DOING for as long as I can recall over the past two decades.

Bolt d'Oro 's trainer is now going to sue

[clocker7]

Bloodhorse wrote the type of article that Joe Drape should have. It should have been complete with more information, plus the history of the positives from the past and those that used them.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ustify-scandal

The thesis that Justify -- a 1-20 shot in his previous race and the eventual 9-10 favorite in the SA Derby -- was so vulnerable that the connections decided to load him up just seems implausible.

[AMPHAR]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

This is a complete non sequitur. There are many, many examples of athletes who were not clean but passed drug tests.

Eh, then why assume the horses he beat were clean?

Bad logic.

NFL keeps getting brought up. So what? It’s enhanced players beating enhanced players. Just look at the size decrease once they stop playing and all other sort of common sense logic.


Probably the same in horse racing.

Just like baseball. Sure the homerun hitters took public abuse but the pitchers weren’t clean either.

[AMPHAR]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Suppose for the sake of argument, a name NFL quarterback -- a Tom Brady, a Joe Montana, a Terry Bradshaw, a Troy Aikman, a Peyton Manning, an Eli Manning, a Ben Roethlisberger, a John Elway, a Jim Plunkett, a Bob Griese, a Roger Staubach, or a Bart Starr, etc., had tested positive for a banned PED after his team had won an NFC or AFC title a week or two prior to the Super Bowl?

How do you think the Commissioner of the NFL or the league itself would have acted?

Option A.) Announce the test results to the public right away? And let the chips fall where they may?

Option B.) Not tell anybody? Wait until after the Super Bowl? Then hold a closed door session months later and quietly sweep it under the rug? And while you're at it change the rule after the fact and significantly reduce the penalty for the banned substance in question?

How do you think the public at large would react if it came out that an incident like this had taken place in a major sport like the NFL, NBA, MLB, or NHL prior to their version of a Championship and the regulatory body for that sport had decided on Option B?

If the New York Times article has been truthful at all in reporting the facts this has a terrible look for thoroughbred horse racing.


-jp

.

As far as I know the NFL announces suspensions due to failed PED tests but never identifies any effected games.

[AMPHAR]

Originally Posted by clicknow

Let's go over the vehicle of contamination again.

esp. since Justify received such a high reading that would suggest administration, not casual environmental contamination, because 4x the threshold isn't casual.


From the Bloodhorse article: "On Nov. 14, 2016, the CHRB issued a warning that jimson weed had been found in bedding straw, and because the weed can contain scopolamine, it could lead to a post-race positive because of contamination."

From what I hear, Baffert doesn't bed on straw. He uses bags of shavings.



So it was either the feed or the hay. You'd think in a high level barn and with horse going into Derby qual that everything would be checked over very carefullly, including not allowing any kind of supplements to BE in the feed, which may hurt the horse, cause it to test positive, etc.

If you're in the backside in these situations everyone is extremely vigilant.

Baffert has knowingly "dosed" horses before, with Thryo-L and so it seems like he's interested in these odd substances and what they do to horses.

Are the readings confirmed?

Everyone I’m sure remembers deflate gate. The initial reported readings of reduced air pressure were found completely false.

Have the testing amounts been confirmed by a direct quote? Kinda a big detail for truth seekers out on the inter webs.

[AMPHAR]

Originally Posted by bobphilo

We already have the scandal and the last thing we need is a cover-up. We can't un-ring the bell.

I think racing needs to get its ass kicked.

Major League Baseball covered up steroids for a long time. Those athletes can talk and s lot more public that cares about them. The athletes that threatened sacred records took public scorn but there were plenty of guys using just to get by.

The reality is if Justify cheated he beat a field of cheats.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Bloodhorse wrote the type of article that Joe Drape should have. It should have been complete with more information, plus the history of the positives from the past and those that used them.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...ustify-scandal

The thesis that Justify -- a 1-20 shot in his previous race and the eventual 9-10 favorite in the SA Derby -- was so vulnerable that the connections decided to load him up just seems implausible.

Bloodhorse would have never written ANY article if it hadn't been for Joe Drape.

I am truly sick of the racing press ignoring and doing no investigative reporting on the dark sides of the sport, and then publishing articles minimizing or parroting industry spin after an outside publication calls the sport out.

If Bloodhorse wants any credibility on these sorts of issues, start doing exposes itself. Start offending your advertisers.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AMPHAR

Eh, then why assume the horses he beat were clean?

I don't assume that. But I do know that one horse in the Santa Anita Derby and TC cycle failed both splits of a drug test, and the racing board covered it up. So let's start with him, shall we?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AMPHAR

Are the readings confirmed?

Everyone I’m sure remembers deflate gate. The initial reported readings of reduced air pressure were found completely false.

Brady's suspension was reviewed and affirmed by the US Circuit Court of Appeals.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Bloodhorse would have never written ANY article if it hadn't been for Joe Drape.

I am truly sick of the racing press ignoring and doing no investigative reporting on the dark sides of the sport, and then publishing articles minimizing or parroting industry spin after an outside publication calls the sport out.

If Bloodhorse wants any credibility on these sorts of issues, start doing exposes itself. Start offending your advertisers.

What is your end goal?

What do you want to see happen? The end of American horse racing? More transparency? The end of California racing even though you live in California?

What is it that you are looking for the sport to do?

And no, 'be fair' isn't an answer. Nor is 'fair racing across the board', cuz we all know that ain't happening anytime soon either.

What is it, about this case that you really want to see as a change?