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Old 09-28-2017, 01:32 PM   #4006
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The flip side is that believers get to live forever in a paradise. Either way, believer or non-believer, the problem with this hypothesis is that there is absolutely no way to test it short of dying.


Christianity (and religion in general) has all the hallmarks of a scam.
  • Too good to be true.
  • Hazy on details. 30,000 different interpretations.
  • Uncharted territory. You can only collect by dying.
America has many megachurches where tens of thousands of people come every week and give their money away so people like Joel Osteen can live in mansions. I think the early Christian leaders had the same motive.
What is "too good to be true"?

"Hazy details"? The gospel and most of the bible is explicit and easy to understand.

"Uncharted territory"? Not hardly! A radically transformed life begins in this age with the new birth, which means believers reap many benefits in this age.

And what about all the tens of thousands of smaller churches that have pastors who aren't being paid mega bucks and living on Easy Street? Don't forget: Widespread apostasy is predicted throughout the NT.
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Old 09-28-2017, 02:07 PM   #4007
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And what about all the tens of thousands of smaller churches that have pastors who aren't being paid mega bucks and living on Easy Street?
Those pastors are among the deceived. They are soldiers for the leaders at the top. Do you think the Pope shits in the woods? Would men who really believed this be raping little boys?
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Don't forget: Widespread apostasy is predicted throughout the NT.
No kidding? The early leaders would have experienced widespread rejection of their scam from the beginning. Predicting that this would continue or even grow is not a great leap in logic. A preemptive prophecy is an obvious strategy.
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What is "too good to be true"?
Lots of things. The "you can live forever" bit. The "somebody up there is looking out for me" bit. Etc.
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"Hazy details"? The gospel and most of the bible is explicit and easy to understand.
Sez you. You have come up with your own interpretation. If it's so easy to understand why have you not converted all believers to your point of view.
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"Uncharted territory"? Not hardly! A radically transformed life begins in this age with the new birth, which means believers reap many benefits in this age.
"All lies and jests. Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." -- Paul Simon

There is more "truth" in the writings of Paul Simon, Jim Steinman and Nobel laureate Bob Dylan than in all the Bible.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:27 PM   #4008
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Those pastors are among the deceived. They are soldiers for the leaders at the top. Do you think the Pope shits in the woods? Would men who really believed this be raping little boys?
No kidding? The early leaders would have experienced widespread rejection of their scam from the beginning. Predicting that this would continue or even grow is not a great leap in logic. A preemptive prophecy is an obvious strategy.
Lots of things. The "you can live forever" bit. The "somebody up there is looking out for me" bit. Etc.
Sez you. You have come up with your own interpretation. If it's so easy to understand why have you not converted all believers to your point of view.
"All lies and jests. Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." -- Paul Simon

There is more "truth" in the writings of Paul Simon, Jim Steinman and Nobel laureate Bob Dylan than in all the Bible.
There's a lot of truth truth to Uncle Paul Simon's adage. Just remember: It applies to ALL men, including atheists, agnostics and all other sundry types of pagans. However, since Christian conversion (the new birth) is a supernatural act of God, as are the gifts of faith and repentance as well, born again Christians are exempt from Paul's broad-brushed cynicism, which clearly implies man's prejudices utterly blinds him to truth; for God can shine his light of truth into the darkest of human hearts.

The reason for the "preemptive prophecy" is that the entire bible bears witness to the truth of the depravity of the human heart. For starters, read Israel's history in the OT someday.

And, no, I have not come up with my own interpretation. God teaches his saints. But he only teaches those with honest and good hearts (given to his people, of course, by grace.) (See the parable of the Four Soils in Luke 8.) The bible is actually self-interpretative. (Research the Reformed Doctrine of Analogy of Faith.)
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:47 AM   #4009
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Joseph Smith claimed to have had visions which lead him to discover a set of golden plates containing a New Testament of Jesus Christ. Smith translated the plates and got witnesses to testify to their authenticity. Based on this Smith founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormonism).

In 1950 L. Ron Hubbard published Dyanetics and subsequently founded Scientology. Hubbard wanted to sell a medical device which was pure quackery. Prosecuted by the government Hubbard changed his claim from "medical" to "religious" and the government let him off the hook. Later in life Hubbard peddled the idea that the universe is ruled by Xenu the Galactic Overlord.

I seriously doubt that many here would dispute the position that Smith and Hubbard were con artists. If they were not then the men among us should have multiple wives and get ourselves hooked up to a voltmeter (at great expense) to get audited.

There's no reason for a thinking person to believe that Mormonism and Scientology are the genuine article. Neither is there any reason to believe that Christianity is genuine either. Mormonism has Smith and Scientology has Hubbard. Through the vale of 2000 years it's harder to tell who was the Smith/Hubbard of Christianity. Perhaps it was some itinerant preacher named Jesus (a common name at the time), or a con man named Saul (also a common name), or a group. Whatever, no matter what age there always seems to be a group gullible enough to believe in a Smith, a Hubbard or a Jesus.

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... However, since Christian conversion (the new birth) is a supernatural act of God, ...
There you go again, appealing to the supernatural which, of course, cannot be tested.
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... read Israel's history in the OT someday.
I have. Twice. As I've said before, scripture proves nothing. The OT is not a reliable historical document.
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And, no, I have not come up with my own interpretation.
Fine. Someone else came up the the interpretation (Calvin?) and you bought it hook, line and sinker. That does not address the question of why there are so many different interpretations.
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God teaches his saints.
And you think you aced the course.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:55 AM   #4010
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Joseph Smith claimed to have had visions which lead him to discover a set of golden plates containing a New Testament of Jesus Christ. Smith translated the plates and got witnesses to testify to their authenticity. Based on this Smith founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormonism).

In 1950 L. Ron Hubbard published Dyanetics and subsequently founded Scientology. Hubbard wanted to sell a medical device which was pure quackery. Prosecuted by the government Hubbard changed his claim from "medical" to "religious" and the government let him off the hook. Later in life Hubbard peddled the idea that the universe is ruled by Xenu the Galactic Overlord.

I seriously doubt that many here would dispute the position that Smith and Hubbard were con artists. If they were not then the men among us should have multiple wives and get ourselves hooked up to a voltmeter (at great expense) to get audited.

There's no reason for a thinking person to believe that Mormonism and Scientology are the genuine article. Neither is there any reason to believe that Christianity is genuine either. Mormonism has Smith and Scientology has Hubbard. Through the vale of 2000 years it's harder to tell who was the Smith/Hubbard of Christianity. Perhaps it was some itinerant preacher named Jesus (a common name at the time), or a con man named Saul (also a common name), or a group. Whatever, no matter what age there always seems to be a group gullible enough to believe in a Smith, a Hubbard or a Jesus.

There you go again, appealing to the supernatural which, of course, cannot be tested.
I have. Twice. As I've said before, scripture proves nothing. The OT is not a reliable historical document.
Fine. Someone else came up the the interpretation (Calvin?) and you bought it hook, line and sinker. That does not address the question of why there are so many different interpretations.
And you think you aced the course.
You are slow in connecting the dots. There are "so many interpretations" because:

1. The human heart is depraved and wants to believe what it wants. You even quoted a guy who said this! (Do you even listen to yourself!?)

2. Because of the above so few are teachable by God.

3. I know God exists and is actively working in this world, generally, and even more specifically is actively working in the hearts, minds and souls of his people, since our lives have been radically transformed since our conversion.

4. Appealing to two cults and attempting to draw parallels between them and biblical Christianity is fallacy of false analogy and false equivalency.

5. The scriptures provide their own tests for determining what is false and what isn't. None of the cults can pass these tests.

Have a nice day.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:19 AM   #4011
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Feel the Pulse of a Dead, Apostate Church

https://www.churchmilitant.com/video...eid=4093aff58d

And as bad as things are in the Church of Rome, they are equally as bad, if not worse, in Protestantism. Yet, God is faithful. He always preserves his remnant. Today, the the true church has its "7,000" who have not bowed their knee to Baal, just as Israel had its faithful 7,000 back in Elijah's day.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:59 AM   #4012
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What troubles me is that the topic of "reincarnation" was rampant in Early Christianity...but now it's been entirely wiped out. Are we to believe the Early Christian Fathers...or the LATE ones?

https://www.near-death.com/reincarna...istianity.html
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:05 PM   #4013
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What troubles me is that the topic of "reincarnation" was rampant in Early Christianity...but now it's been entirely wiped out. Are we to believe the Early Christian Fathers...or the LATE ones?

https://www.near-death.com/reincarna...istianity.html
The article talks about "Christian Gnostics", which is an oxymoron. The Gnostics infiltrated the Church in the first century which is why both John and Paul warned Christians about the Gnostic heresy.
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:39 PM   #4014
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The article talks about "Christian Gnostics", which is an oxymoron. The Gnostics infiltrated the Church in the first century which is why both John and Paul warned Christians about the Gnostic heresy.
The Gnostics predated the Christians...and they are more believable...IMO. "Gnosticism" has gotten a bum rap from the "Modern" Christian churches...as if the word epitomizes something "evil". But the term is born from the Greek word "Gnosis", which means "inner knowledge".

If the Gnostics were the "infiltrators" of Christianity...then, why were they hunted down and destroyed by the "literal" Christian churches of that era? Couldn't they have just been "ignored"?

I'll have you know that Clement of Alexandria and his disciple Origen were revered as great "Christian Fathers" during their lifetime...and they were declared "Gnostics" hundreds of years later...when the Christian church "changed its mind" about things.

When it comes to "religion"...I stick with the "originals", and I despise the "newer versions".
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:46 PM   #4015
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The Gnostics predated the Christians...and they are more believable...IMO. "Gnosticism" has gotten a bum rap from the "Modern" Christian churches...as if the word epitomizes something "evil". But the term is born from the Greek word "Gnosis", which means "inner knowledge".

If the Gnostics were the "infiltrators" of Christianity...then, why were they hunted down and destroyed by the "literal" Christian churches of that era? Couldn't they have just been "ignored"?

I'll have you know that Clement of Alexandria and his disciple Origen were revered as great "Christian Fathers" during their lifetime...and they were declared "Gnostics" hundreds of years later...when the Christian church "changed its mind" about things.

When it comes to "religion"...I stick with the "originals", and I despise the "newer versions".
Again, provide documentation that the Gnostics were a persecuted religious sect.

And, yes, Gnosticism is older than Christianity -- but so what!? It's not older than Old Covenant Judaism from which Christianity flowed. As stated on other occasions, Christianity is nothing less than fulfilled Judaism since all the OT covenant promises are fulfilled in Christ (2Cor 1:20).

Gnosticism has gotten a "bad rap" from the very beginning, and rightfully so! Again...both Paul and John warned the first century Church about the heresies of Gnosticism. In short, Gnosticism doesn't square with Christian theology.

And just who changed their minds about Clement and Origen? Could that have been the RCC?
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:51 PM   #4016
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1. The human heart is depraved ...
Define depraved. According to M-W the word dates from the 14th century. What word was used before then?

And how do you know "the human heart is depraved?"
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... and wants to believe what it wants. You even quoted a guy who said this!
Who and when?
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2. Because of the above so few are teachable by God.
Ergo, God (if he exists) is not omnipotent.
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3. I know God exists ...
How?
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4. Appealing to two cults and attempting to draw parallels between them and biblical Christianity is fallacy of false analogy ...
The parallels do not constitute an analogy. An analogy requires an analog, i.e., something that shares pertinent features, but not all features, with the object under study. A medical student may practice open heart surgery on a pig because the heart of a pig is very similar to a human heart. The pig is an analog but no one is claiming that the pig is human. The pertinent features between Smith, Hubbard and Christ are that they all claimed to have revealed knowledge. The pertinent question is: why reject Smith and Hubbard while accepting Christ?
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... and false equivalency.
Ditto.
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5. The scriptures provide their own tests for determining what is false and what isn't. None of the cults can pass these tests.
Using scripture to prove scripture. You are back to circular reasoning.
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:19 PM   #4017
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Define depraved. According to M-W the word dates from the 14th century. What word was used before then?
Don't know. I'm not that old.

Quote:
And how do you know "the human heart is depraved?"
I know this from the bible, from personal experience and from observation and experience of the fallen world around me.

Quote:
Who and when?
Are you senile? You don't remember what you posted a few days ago? See your 4007.


The parallels do not constitute an analogy. An analogy requires an analog, i.e., something that shares pertinent features, but not all features, with the object under study. A medical student may practice open heart surgery on a pig because the heart of a pig is very similar to a human heart. The pig is an analog but no one is claiming that the pig is human. The pertinent features between Smith, Hubbard and Christ are that they all claimed to have revealed knowledge. The pertinent question is: why reject Smith and Hubbard while accepting Christ?[/quote]

Look up the definition of "parallel". In my M-W, it says in part: something equal or similar in all essential particulars: COUNTERPART, SIMILARITY, ANALOGUE.

Smith and Hubbard's beliefs often contradict Christ's; yet, Christ's teachings are consistent with all scripture. My money is on Christ.

Quote:
Using scripture to prove scripture. You are back to circular reasoning.
Of course, I can use scripture to interpret scripture -- which you call "proving". Haven't you often tried to use scripture to discredit it? To show that it's replete with contradictions? In this particular instance, if scripture didn't give its readers explicit instructions on how to test truth claims, then everyone could make up their own rules.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:40 PM   #4018
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I know this from the bible, from personal experience and from observation and experience of the fallen world around me.
What experiences? What observations? Can you share that with us?

You still have not defined depraved.
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Are you senile? You don't remember what you posted a few days ago? See your 4007.
I post a lot. For all I knew you meant some quote of Richard Stark's in Religion I five years ago. You should try to be specific.
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Look up the definition of "parallel". In my M-W, it says in part: something equal or similar in all essential particulars: COUNTERPART, SIMILARITY, ANALOGUE.
The "similarities" and "essential particulars" of Mormonism, Scientology and Christianity are that they all have dead founders and outlandish claims. So the question stands: Why believe one and not the others.
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Smith and Hubbard's beliefs often contradict Christ's; ...
The Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. Not to defend Smith but can you give an example where Mormon beliefs contradict Christian beliefs?
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... yet, Christ's teachings are consistent with all scripture.
Mormons make the same claim do they not?
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My money is on Christ.
Running in the 5th at Belmont. Playing an exacta who is the second horse? Perhaps you should box the bet.

By the way, you can't take it with you.
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Of course, I can use scripture to interpret scripture -- which you call "proving".
Interpreting and proving are not the same thing.
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Haven't you often tried to use scripture to discredit it?
And succeeded!
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In this particular instance, if scripture didn't give its readers explicit instructions ...
What instructions?
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... on how to test truth claims, then everyone could make up their own rules.
Which you do.
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Old 10-02-2017, 05:18 PM   #4019
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What experiences? What observations? Can you share that with us?

You still have not defined depraved.
I post a lot. For all I knew you meant some quote of Richard Stark's in Religion I five years ago. You should try to be specific.
The "similarities" and "essential particulars" of Mormonism, Scientology and Christianity are that they all have dead founders and outlandish claims. So the question stands: Why believe one and not the others.
The Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. Not to defend Smith but can you give an example where Mormon beliefs contradict Christian beliefs?
Mormons make the same claim do they not?
Running in the 5th at Belmont. Playing an exacta who is the second horse? Perhaps you should box the bet.

By the way, you can't take it with you.
Interpreting and proving are not the same thing.
And succeeded!
What instructions?
Which you do.
Look up "depraved" in your M-W.

Mormonism is not Christianity. See below.

https://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

Jesus Christ, as the one in whom all the covenant promises are fulfilled in the OT, is very much alive and well, thank you. The other two guys...not so much.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:58 PM   #4020
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Look up "depraved" in your M-W.
I did.
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Mormonism is not Christianity.
The Mormons disagree.
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Jesus Christ, as the one in whom all the covenant promises are fulfilled in the OT, is very much alive and well, thank you.
No. If he ever existed he's dead now. You cannot prove otherwise.

Once again you have sidestepped the issue (i.e., deflected). Why accept the Christian story and reject others?
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