Religion III

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Actually, Proverbs is referring to the Holy Spirit of God, but when talking about "a person" or flesh, as you've extrapolated, Christ is correct....When dealing with the essence of God, Christ himself warned not to deny the Holy Spirit, the ONLY unforgivable sin.

The source of all Wisdom is the Holy Spirit.

Hello, Replay.

https://biblia.com/books/rsvce/1Co1.24

Some of us accept the doctrine of "appropriation"...

https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-.../appropriation

...regarding the Persons of the Trinity.

In desiring to reveal something of the Triune God, Christ labored to ensure the distinction of Persons, as often presented in scripture.

The Persons of the Trinity wholly possessing the divine nature in each and being of one will, there is not something one wills or does which is not perfectly the will and act of the others, else they not possess the divine nature wholly in each Person. The distinction is made for Christ of course, who alone is "Redeemer" in the sense of his human nature.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

In what sense does "strife, obstacles...tragedy", etc., fit evolutions' fundamental function of reproduction?

Also Mountain, you're assigning teleology to nature when you state that humans are "born for" this or that. That's a no-no in materialism because it implies metaphysical final causation rather than mere efficient causation...

https://www.britannica.com/topic/teleology

I enjoyed your conversation describing the meeting with youthful visitors from Steubenville a few weeks ago.

You're quite right. But greyhounds in nature (as opposed to some man-made race track) are designed for speed and, therefore, well-equipped to catch that rabbit.

While it is true that man is severely handicapped (fallen) and consequently not inherently equipped to seek the comforts, peace, joy and love of God in heaven, God's grace is more than sufficient to make that happen -- to equip us and prepare us in this life for our eternal, blissful, perfect inheritance. After all, the chief end of man is to have blissful communion with Him, to enjoy Him and to glorify Him forever.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Man is a walking contradiction. He claims that he is in search of "happiness"...and yet he destroys his own happiness as if it were his enemy. He readily admits that life is hard and unfair...and yet he openly laments life's quick passing. And he expects a savior to come for him after death...even though no such savior can ever be found in life. One wonders why Aristotle called man the "Rational Animal".

Not True. This is precisely why Jesus promised his disciples that after he leaves them, he would send them The Comforter (the Holy Spirit) to be with them forever. And this promise was kept on Pentecost. Those of us who are in Christ, know we are (1Jn 5:13-15)!

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

The Persons of the Trinity wholly possessing the divine nature in each and being of one will, there is not something one wills or does which is not perfectly the will and act of the others, else they not possess the divine nature wholly in each Person. The distinction is made for Christ of course, who alone is "Redeemer" in the sense of his human nature.

Which part of the Trinity is with us now?....The Holy Spirit.

Is Christ present in the Holy Spirit? Is the Father, God Almighty as well?...Of course They both are.

Bottom-line, Deny the Holy Spirit and you deny the Totality of God. This is why Christ warned us while He was here....

The Holy Spirit of God dwells within us, Christ is at the right hand of the Father...Where is the Father and Christ right now?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Not True. This is precisely why Jesus promised his disciples that after he leaves them, he would send them The Comforter (the Holy Spirit) to be with them forever. And this promise was kept on Pentecost. Those of us who are in Christ, know we are (1Jn 5:13-15)!

Jesus might have said this to his disciples...but does this have anything to do with YOU? The disciples had Jesus walking among them...and all you've got is a bunch of fragmented and heavily edited anonymous aphorisms whose meaning has left the different Christian factions arguing with each other for over 2,000 years.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Jesus might have said this to his disciples...but does this have anything to do with YOU? The disciples had Jesus walking among them...and all you've got is a bunch of fragmented and heavily edited anonymous aphorisms whose meaning has left the different Christian factions arguing with each other for over 2,000 years.

Jesus fulfilled his promise to his disciples and all future generations of disciples on Pentecost. You can read all about it in Acts 1.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Actor

I.e., you are asking if I believe that "There exists a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us?"

Yes that's what I'm asking you. We obviously didn't create ourselves.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I think you have filled your head with so much Far Eastern Religious mush, you can no longer think straight.

I don't read Far Eastern Religious things for answers just like I don't read the Bible for answers.

If I have personal spiritual issues, rather than thinking about them, or looking in a book,I go within and the answers come. That is the power of meditation. The wisdom of God is within.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Light

If I have personal spiritual issues, rather than thinking about them, or looking in a book,I go within and the answers come. That is the power of meditation.The wisdom of God is within.

You would think that the most powerful entity in the universe could find a more concise way of communicating with his creation.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

In what sense does "strife, obstacles...tragedy", etc., fit evolutions' fundamental function of reproduction?

This planet wasn't created or designed for us. Nor was the existence or possibility of sentient life ever akin to Woody Allen writing Annie Hall with Diane Keaton in mind. We insinuated our way into this movie and evolution has tailored us to the role.

In other words, natural selection has so favored for so long those homo sapiens best suited to dealing with strife, obstacles, and tragedy, that we could never function without those very things we lament.

Apologies if that circumvents your question, sir. But questions and answers never do quite connect on this thread (or topic), do they?

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

I enjoyed your conversation describing the meeting with youthful visitors from Steubenville a few weeks ago.

LOL..tx, sir. I tried to convey very tactfully (and in a balanced manner) just how impressive those ladies were. Danger Will Robinson! Danger!!

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Which part of the Trinity is with us now?....The Holy Spirit.

Is Christ present in the Holy Spirit? Is the Father, God Almighty as well?...Of course They both are.

Bottom-line, Deny the Holy Spirit and you deny the Totality of God. This is why Christ warned us while He was here....

The Holy Spirit of God dwells within us, Christ is at the right hand of the Father...Where is the Father and Christ right now?

"We will come to him and make our home with him...

https://biblia.com/books/rsvce/Jn14.23

God is knowledge and love. I would propose that the Holy Spirit is "appropriated" as indwelling because he is representative of the love of God, as Christ is "appropriated" as the knowledge and wisdom of God (God conceives the idea of his infinite existence; that thought- "Word" [Jn 1:1] since we think in words- lacks nothing of what the thinker has, else it would be incomplete; thus the "Son" shares the nature and infinite existence of the Father); and so the Father "generates", though the Persons are wholly of infinite existence in themselves, since they each possess the divine nature wholly and perfectly.

"Is Christ present in the Holy Spirit? Is the Father..." This rather supports the statement that each Person of the Trinity is of one will and action, and distinct acts are for the sake of appropriation, to ensure that we retain the distinction of Persons in the Trinity.

How does appropriation deny the Holy Spirit? In fact, it is the Holy Spirit who created and sustains matter, who willed in one act of infinite existence and knowledge the acts of salvation history, who indwells in those in a state of grace. But it is also the Father and Son who do so. Creation and sanctification are the work of the Divine nature, of which each Person possesses wholly.

"Where is the Father and Christ right now"? "Sitting at the right hand" is a metaphor for the place of honor. God is spirit-no space, no time, rather a state of being, of existence. Christ in his glorified body participates in the divine nature (2 Pt 1:4) transcending space and time. None of this entails the Holy Spirit occupying space over here, while the Father and Son are over there.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by mountainman

This planet wasn't created or designed for us. Nor was the existence or possibility of sentient life ever akin to Woody Allen writing Annie Hall with Diane Keaton in mind. We insinuated our way into this movie and evolution has tailored us to the role.

In other words, natural selection has so favored for so long those homo sapiens best suited to dealing with strife, obstacles, and tragedy, that we could never function without those very things we lament.

Apologies if that circumvents your question, sir. But questions and answers never do quite connect on this thread (or topic), do they?

Thanks for the response, MM.

Yet, the "agape" love described by the Christian far exceeds what is present in mere empathy or ethics, in my own experience. The evolutionary hill climbing that produced empathy or fraternal love would stop far short of "agape", once mere empathy and the like became the higher hill (local maxima).

The naturalist and polymath Raymond Tallis asks, "Why consciousness"? in terms of evolution, when reproduction among non-rational beings was doing just fine, though he hasn't abandoned his atheism.

David Chalmers is a leading voice in the "mind-body problem" and the "hard problem of consciousness". He opts for panpsychism, the idea that everything in matter has consciousness, in order to be faithful to his naturalism.

Alex Rosenberg (Duke U.) asks how meaningless matter in the brain (neurons, etc.) can be about other meaningless matter (Essential Quality, e.g.), and prefers eliminative materialism (our thoughts are illusionary).

Perhaps most problematic for the materialist is the concept of intentionality...

https://iep.utm.edu/intentio/#SH3d

...how is meaning introduced from meaningless matter, without an external agent?

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

None of this entails the Holy Spirit occupying space over here, while the Father and Son are over there.

Christ's ascension took place for those gathered to "see it", same with Thomas and his doubting nature....Christ CHOSE to lay down His "physical" life, He could have chosen not to at that specific time and manner.

According to scripture, God the Father walked with Adam, was face to face with Moses, yet hasn't appeared to anyone since then. Christ was here for a very short 33 years and then no more....Hasn't been back, even though he "physically" left in front of hundreds.

Christ said that in His place would come the Counselor, the Wisdom and mind of God--->The Holy Spirit.

Do you see how easy that was to explain? Why do you feel it's necessary to throw around scriptural word salad in your responses? Why make every explanation so arduous and difficult? Who are you trying to impress? How many times to others have to point this out to you?

If you want to engage in discussions of hermeneutics and exegetical theology, which might lead us to the proper contextualization...you'll have to call up your seminary Professor, who probably will fulfill your much needed ego stroke.

You make conversation too damn hard to engage and enjoy.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Christ's ascension took place for those gathered to "see it", same with Thomas and his doubting nature....Christ CHOSE to lay down His "physical" life, He could have chosen not to at that specific time and manner.

According to scripture, God the Father walked with Adam, was face to face with Moses, yet hasn't appeared to anyone since then. Christ was here for a very short 33 years and then no more....Hasn't been back, even though he "physically" left in front of hundreds.

Christ said that in His place would come the Counselor, the Wisdom and mind of God--->The Holy Spirit.

Do you see how easy that was to explain? Why do you feel it's necessary to throw around scriptural word salad in your responses? Why make every explanation so arduous and difficult? Who are you trying to impress? How many times to others have to point this out to you?

If you want to engage in discussions of hermeneutics and exegetical theology, which might lead us to the proper contextualization...you'll have to call up your seminary Professor, who probably will fulfill your much needed ego stroke.

You make conversation too damn hard to engage and enjoy.

I had mentioned that Christ labored to ensure that the disciples were endowed with the knowledge that there are three distinct Persons in the Trinity. Obviously then, scripture would often describe the work of the Trinity as Christ the wisdom, the Holy Spirit indwelling, etc., with distinctive works. That doesn't deny the principle that each Person of the Holy Trinity possesses the divine nature entirely in his self, ergo the Persons of the Trinity cannot will or act separately, excepting for Christ acting in his human nature.

It's fairly apparent that there has been little contemplation of the inner life of the Trinity, in the faith traditions present here. There are principles drawn from scripture and contemplated by Christians for 2000 years (Augustine, the Doctor of Grace refers to the Trinity and appropriation, e.g.) working out their final formulas over decades and centuries. The representative Christian in this forum is steeped in American fundamentalism, or accepts that Christianity began with the printing press. Think you're the only one frustrated by the conversation?