Religion III

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by Light

The statistics are that most people who are pronounced clinically dead have only a 10% chance of having and remembering an afterlife experience. The fact that the clinically dead Golfer remembered nothing, disproves nothing.

With all respect, sir. not at all interested in any study that includes people eager for prospect of an after-life. Nobody wants to be dead forever, thus on topics involving eternal life and the "soul," the HUMAN RACE is a tainted and biased sampling. The kid had no axe to grind, and he IS my statistic.

Craft your own conclusions as you will.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I enjoy listening to audiobooks, especially in the car...and one of my favorites is a Dick Cavett book narrated by Cavett himself, which I listened to a long time ago. An interesting story was shared by Cavett in that book, which deals with the topic you've mentioned above. I searched and found the link to that story, and feel obligated to share it here...although it hardly compares with the first-hand account of the teen that you met on the golf course. Please don't assume that I am trying to change your mind in any way here -- I have too much respect for you to ever attempt such a thing. What I might be trying to do, I guess, is echo the words of Shakespeare...who had Hamlet say: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

I just feel that we might be a tad ill-equipped to unravel the mysteries of life...and what may lie thereafter.

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.co...rious-message/

Compelling, Gus. And, believe it or not, I am NOT a non-believer. It is simply my opinion that man tailored God in MAN'S image, crafting a suspiciously "human" lord with very man-like values and attitudes.

Take, for instance, the oft-used expression "the MAN upstairs." What could better prove my take on this??

The god we insist, in our self-centered and supreme arrogance, on imbuing with our own values (and limitations) is basically ONE HELLUVA MAN. And how considerate of him to assign such importance to a species evolved from mere primates.

For my money, man appointed HIMSELF god right from the first jump. And conventional religion(s) MORE than establish that.

Just my point of view, good friend. And I could CERTAINLY be mistaken. Mercifully, I will spare the forum my more extensive beliefs on the true, chaotic, nature of god and our seriously misguided attempts to know "him."

Much respect, as always.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Still waiting for those specifics.

Make it easy on yourself. Just one level will do.

You, sir, have already put his word to the "test" with your alleged contradictions and each time it turned out to be an epic fail for you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by mountainman

Compelling, Gus. And, believe it or not, I am NOT a non-believer. It is simply my opinion that man tailored God in MAN'S image, crafting a suspiciously "human" lord with very man-like values and attitudes.

Take, for instance, the oft-used expression "the MAN upstairs." What could better prove my take on this??

The god we insist, in our self-centered and supreme arrogance, on imbuing with our own values (and limitations) is basically ONE HELLUVA MAN. And how considerate of him to assign such importance to a species evolved from mere primates.

For my money, man appointed HIMSELF god right from the first jump. And conventional religion(s) MORE than establish that.

Just my point of view, good friend. And I could CERTAINLY be mistaken. Mercifully, I will spare the forum my more extensive beliefs on the true, chaotic, nature of god and our seriously misguided attempts to know "him."

Much respect, as always.

A colloquialism such as "the man upstairs" is iron clad proof? Doesn't take much to convince you of what you already determined to believe.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Doesn't take much to convince you of what you already determined to believe.

More than it took for man to convince himself that he is the center of the universe and his essence exists forever. I'd say man is somewhat "predisposed" to buy into the notion of an afterlife.

Whatever the case, I respect your beliefs and passion for this topic.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by mountainman

More than it took for man to convince himself that he is the center of the universe and his essence exists forever. I'd say man is somewhat "predisposed" to buy into the notion of an afterlife.

Whatever the case, I respect your beliefs and passion for this topic.

Fallen man does think he is god and that universe revolves around him, and that he can do whatever is right in his own eyes. It is no coincidence whatsoever that at the very end of this age, just before Christ returns, scripture speaks of one such particular man:

2 Thess 2:3-10
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
NASB

[Light]

Originally Posted by mountainman

With all respect, sir. not at all interested in any study that includes people eager for prospect of an after-life.

The statistic I quoted is not anecdotal, it is from thousands of scientific studies. Mainstream scientist don't disagree with those statistics either.

Its the interpretation of why some people have these experiences that is debated on and whether those experiences are truly an OBE (out of body experience) on the "other side".

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Just like you. Self-righteous. Worldy-wise. Not in need of salvation. And too good to believe Jesus or the One who sent him.

And Jesus never taught the universal fatherhood of God either! In fact, you have the same father as the Pharisees:

John 8:39-44
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
NASB

You, the Pharisees and the evil one all reject God's truth. There is no truth in the devil, none in the Pharisees and none in you. Your only "truth" are your personal, subjective feelings and experiences. God is no more your Father than he is of the devil or the Pharisees.

Read John 17 again! You are the very antithesis to the disciples whom the Father gave to Jesus; for they accepted and believed God's truth as taught by God's Son, but you do not.

Is this how Christians welcome their fellow believers in Jesus Christ? Something Jesus himself worked tirelessly for. By denying others beliefs in Jesus, you deny Jesus.

Ask yourself who benefits from your actions. The Devil or God, you or me? It's clear who you work for and at minimum low life wages. Jesus has rewarded me all my life and at maximum pay: Divine Love.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Is this how Christians welcome their fellow believers in Jesus Christ? Something Jesus himself worked tirelessly for. By denying others beliefs in Jesus, you deny Jesus.

Ask yourself who benefits from your actions. The Devil or God, you or me? It's clear who you work for and at minimum low life wages. Jesus has rewarded me all my life and at maximum pay: Divine Love.

Jesus worked tirelessly doing his Father's will and revealing the truth he heard from his Father to a lost dying world. The only belief you have "in Jesus" is your truth grounded in your personal, subjective feelings and experiences and in your heretical notions about God, such as his supposed universal fatherhood of the entire human race and unconditional love -- doctrines that are alien to God's Holy Word.

You have absolutely no love for His truth and categorically reject it in favor of your own carnal fancies. It is not possible for a true child of God to say that he loves God and yet at the same time have no love for his truth -- the truth to which he positively responded to the salvation of his immoral soul. It is by this truth that every child of God is born again and is rescued from Satan's kingdom of darkness and brought into the glorious kingdom of light of the Son of God!

James 1:17-18
17Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures.
NASB

I solemnly warn you that unless you reconsider your ways, this will be your end:

2 Thess 2:7-12
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
NASB

You keep boasting of God's love, yet never once have you told us how much you love Him in return! God's love has always been about you! About making you feel good. About sending spiritual tingles up your leg. About providing you with good experiences. But here's another word from your "best friend" conveyed through the apostle:

1 Cor 16:22
22 If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be accursed. Maranatha.
NASB

Take heed, Mr. Light, for your time, as is all of ours, on this earth is short.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You, sir, have already put his word to the "test" with your alleged contradictions and each time it turned out to be an epic fail for you.

Epic fail? Hardly!

You have not addressed the "top 5" from #2370.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Epic fail? Hardly!

You have not addressed the "top 5" from #2370.

That's because you ran out of contradiction currency! I have addressed various contradictions (so called) from the past -- way before this current thread. My policy is to give people their three best shots, so that I don't have to spend endless hours addressing this kind of drivel.

Now...Google the solutions to your "top 5" on the WWW.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

That's because you ran out of contradiction currency! I have addressed various contradictions (so called) from the past -- way before this current thread. My policy is to give people their three best shots, so that I don't have to spend endless hours addressing this kind of drivel.

Now...Google the solutions to your "top 5" on the WWW.

Contradictions abound throughout thew bible. Taking it literally is a fool's errand. Your central fundamentalist Christians dogma, that the Bible is without error, is to borrow a well worn phrase from you, "self-defeating"

Explain this doozy about a fickle, "jealous God"


The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. — Ezekiel 18:20

.................................................. ..

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; — Exodus 20:5

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Contradictions abound throughout thew bible. Taking it literally is a fool's errand. Your central fundamentalist Christians dogma, that the Bible is without error, is to borrow a well worn phrase from you, "self-defeating"

Explain this doozy about a fickle, "jealous God"


The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. — Ezekiel 18:20

.................................................. ..

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; — Exodus 20:5

You're out of currency, too, Humpty. I have in the past addressed all your alleged contradictions. And I have also in the past explained how jealousy is not always an evil desire. If you weren't so lazy and bigoted and stiff-necked, you would avail yourself of an everyday, common dictionary to look up the various meanings of "jealous" for starters.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The only belief you have "in Jesus" is your truth grounded in your personal, subjective feelings and experiences and in your heretical notions about God, such as his supposed universal fatherhood of the entire human race and unconditional love -- doctrines that are alien to God's Holy Word.

If God did not Father the entire human race as you say, then who did?

And if God does not have unconditional love as you say then Gods that do are on a higher plane of being than God and that is impossible since all those beings come from God. Which means you are not worshiping true God, but false Gods.

Originally Posted by boxcar

You have absolutely no love for His truth and categorically reject it in favor of your own carnal fancies.

That's news to me.

You deny my love for Jesus even though I tell you I do. This is intentional on your part and you should be ashamed of yourself.

You keep debasing yourself by trying to debase me, and in front of all the spirits that exist in this realm including Jesus. You are unaware of their presence.

What you say is a sign of being spiritually deficient.

The reason you are spiritually deficient is because you are empty inside. You have no direct experience with God and live in a fantasy that believing in scriptures will save you. Scriptures are words and thoughts, they are not experience of God which is beyond words and thought because its where words and thoughts come from.

Even if I grant you you're Evangelical view that the scriptures are the literal word of God, that does nothing but DIRECT you to the source, not a facsimile of the source which are written words. The source is within you as Jesus says but you don't believe. That's why you're empty and spiritually deficient inside.

And that is why you feel you have to deny my experience with Jesus. Because you have none.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Light

If God did not Father the entire human race as you say, then who did?.

What is Adam,..Alex.