Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I suggest you take your own advice and consult a dictionary.

It is you who is, evidently, struggling with the definition of "human". You think God is superman.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

And your evidence for this is ..., what?

FTFY!

Just suppose that you had never heard the god hypothesis. The one day a man comes to you with his holy book (Bible, Koran, Veda, Tripitaka, Dyanetics, whatever) and wants to convert you. Do you believe him just because he says so?

What if a whole herd of prophets comes to you, each with a holy book. Do you believe all of them, none of them, some of them or just one of them? If just one then why that one?

You believe in just one, viz., the Bible. Why? Most likely because you were born into a Christian culture. You were indoctrinated as a child, and children do not ask questions.

If you had been born to Hindu parents then you would be a Hindu. If you had been born to Buddhist parents then you would be a Buddhist. It's a matter of geography.

Is the Bible evidence? Is it testable? No, it is not. The Bible even tells its followers "Do not put God to the test." (Or words to that effect.)

But you can put his word to the test. And, yes, the bible is testable on multiple levels.

And the gospel, for your info, cuts across all cultures. It's message of life is spreading like wildfire across the entire world. All God's elect will hear and believe, regardless of location.

I believe the bible because it's message is unique. I haven't had any Buddhists or Hindus or Muslims or anyone else from a different religious belief knocking on my door, excited to share the message of life with me. This proves they're still in a state of [spiritual] death because their "holy scriptures" are equally as dead.

There is a reason why Jesus said, "My words are spirit and life." And why Paul said that the "Gospel is the power of God unto salvation".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But you can put his word to the test. And, yes, the bible is testable on multiple levels.

How? Let's have some specifics.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It is you who is, evidently, struggling with the definition of "human". You think God is superman.

Oh, you believe in Superman too?

[mountainman]

Two years ago on a bleak fall day devoid of hope or character, a teen golfer jumped in front of my friend, Chris, and I on the first tee of a golf course we consider hallowed ground.

The kid moved-and, it turned out, spoke-in a pained, deliberate manner that indicated some handicap or mental issue. A big surgical scar on the side of his shaven head made it apparent he had suffered some grave injury.

Somewhat glum, but increasingly communicative, "Duncan" had retained his faculties, and informed us that a full recovery was expected. A shotgun he was cleaning, he recounted without prompting, had gone off accidentally and blasted the side of his skull off.

Duncan was dead when the paramedics arrived, and according to a wall clock behind him stopped by the bullet, should have stayed dead, no matter how strong his heart or tenacious his will to survive.

Whatever the case, the kid had been dead for a relative eternity before being revived, and did not pause or waffle when asked the obvious question.

"There is nothing," he said. "There is no you. You're just gone."

So I don't need to watch attention whores (of BOTH genders} glorify themselves by gushing to Dr. Phil about dead relatives strutting forth to remind them of "important work still to be done here on earth," or about ridiculous lights or tunnels or harps. Because I learned the truth from a shattered teen boy on that dark afternoon.

Now, please, good sirs, believers, and experts on all things scripture, by all means, show me the fallacy of my thinking. But first, I must request..make sure you speak from experience. That you've at some time been dead, I mean, for just as long as Duncan was.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by mountainman

Two years ago on a bleak fall day devoid of hope or character, a teen golfer jumped in front of my friend, Chris, and I on the first tee of a golf course we consider hallowed ground.

The kid moved-and, it turned out, spoke-in a pained, deliberate manner that indicated some handicap or mental issue. A big surgical scar on the side of his shaven head made it apparent he had suffered some grave injury.

Somewhat glum, but increasingly communicative, "Duncan" had retained his faculties, and informed us that a full recovery was expected. A shotgun he was cleaning, he recounted without prompting, had gone off accidentally and blasted the side of his skull off.

Duncan was dead when the paramedics arrived, and according to a wall clock behind him stopped by the bullet, should have stayed dead, no matter how strong his heart or tenacious his will to survive.

Whatever the case, the kid had been dead for a relative eternity before being revived, and did not pause or waffle when asked the obvious question.

"There is nothing," he said. "There is no you. You're just gone."

So I don't need to watch attention whores (of BOTH genders} glorify themselves by gushing to Dr. Phil about dead relatives strutting forth to remind them of "important work still to be done here on earth," or about ridiculous lights or tunnels or harps. Because I learned the truth from a shattered teen boy on that dark afternoon.

Now, please, good sirs, believers, and experts on all things scripture, by all means, show me the fallacy of my thinking. But first, I must request..make sure you speak from experience. That you've at some time been dead, I mean, for just as long as Duncan was.

Nice. You write well!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

"REBELLED" is absolutely correct. Good choice of word! However, it is your excuse to rebel against the revealed will of God -- a choice you will regret for all eternity.

We were able to sniff out those who falsely pranced about as though they knew stuff, but every word was a dead giveaway they were full of it. After learning about dinosaurs and the age of the earth in public school, my literal minded rabbi in Hebrew school, 4 afternoons after public school a week, would actually raise his voice at me for asking about the apparent difference in ages of his iron clad knee jerk version of 6,000 years, and what was taught to me by rational teachers. Who explained how we knew it was much, much older without the need to tell me god was unhappy with me thinking and learning.

God is most certainly the "theme" in the bible -- or to be more precise the Second Person of the Godhead Jesus Christ. Jesus even said that the OT was centered around Him.

Of course as I grew and met other non literal minded rabbis, and teachers who respected learning and knowledge, I realized who the pretenders were. Whether short sighted Jews or Christians, their odor does not pass the "sniff test"

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Every thistle you post reeks.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What an utterly stupid remark! Great way to start off the New Year.
How do I stop you or anyone else here from believing what you wish?

You have tried from the very first post you made.

In addition to your usual "you are damned" or "you will find out after death how wrong you are", you refuse to discuss differing views rationally and make fun of other beliefs.

You go after Judaism, Catholicism. Islam and Buddhism, knowing squat about them, and justify your scorn claiming the bible allows you to demean others of those persuasions. And the kicker. without any understanding of how the world actually works, lecture others on how much of an expert you are on everything.

Yes, you can't dissuade or stop anyone's beliefs by any reasoned discussion, but you sure as hell try, and bore everyone to tears.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by mountainman

Two years ago on a bleak fall day devoid of hope or character, a teen golfer jumped in front of my friend, Chris, and I on the first tee of a golf course we consider hallowed ground.

The kid moved-and, it turned out, spoke-in a pained, deliberate manner that indicated some handicap or mental issue. A big surgical scar on the side of his shaven head made it apparent he had suffered some grave injury.

Somewhat glum, but increasingly communicative, "Duncan" had retained his faculties, and informed us that a full recovery was expected. A shotgun he was cleaning, he recounted without prompting, had gone off accidentally and blasted the side of his skull off.

Duncan was dead when the paramedics arrived, and according to a wall clock behind him stopped by the bullet, should have stayed dead, no matter how strong his heart or tenacious his will to survive.

Whatever the case, the kid had been dead for a relative eternity before being revived, and did not pause or waffle when asked the obvious question.

"There is nothing," he said. "There is no you. You're just gone."

So I don't need to watch attention whores (of BOTH genders} glorify themselves by gushing to Dr. Phil about dead relatives strutting forth to remind them of "important work still to be done here on earth," or about ridiculous lights or tunnels or harps. Because I learned the truth from a shattered teen boy on that dark afternoon.

Now, please, good sirs, believers, and experts on all things scripture, by all means, show me the fallacy of my thinking. But first, I must request..make sure you speak from experience. That you've at some time been dead, I mean, for just as long as Duncan was.

I enjoy listening to audiobooks, especially in the car...and one of my favorites is a Dick Cavett book narrated by Cavett himself, which I listened to a long time ago. An interesting story was shared by Cavett in that book, which deals with the topic you've mentioned above. I searched and found the link to that story, and feel obligated to share it here...although it hardly compares with the first-hand account of the teen that you met on the golf course. Please don't assume that I am trying to change your mind in any way here -- I have too much respect for you to ever attempt such a thing. What I might be trying to do, I guess, is echo the words of Shakespeare...who had Hamlet say: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

I just feel that we might be a tad ill-equipped to unravel the mysteries of life...and what may lie thereafter.

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.co...rious-message/

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by mountainman

"There is nothing," he said. "There is no you. You're just gone."

That was a nicely written account of your experience, and how it *informed* you.


The thing that has me wondering, that your story didn't address, is that being "dead" means your heart has stopped, and therefore no pumping. This is required for life.

However, he was not pronounced "brain dead".....this is an entirely different thing!

"Cardiac arrest isn't always fatal. But when the brain stops functioning there is no recovery...

... The difference is subtle but essential: in a vegetative state the person lacks cognitive functioning but the brain continues to perform other functions that support the body; brain death is the total end of brain activity."

(when discussing medical things, it is important to be very precise).


So, I would continue to wonder here. He said "there is no you".......that is a PERCEPTUAL statement. Something his brain perceived. If he was brain dead there would be no perception at all, only some control over bodily function, perhaps.

The very fact that this could be perceptual means, to me, that it is not any stronger evidence than the accounts of "going to heaven and seeing God" like that little boy wrote the book about. I suspect that, each individual's *perception* may change how death was perceived by them?

[thaskalos]

Here's another story, this time of my own, which might be loosely related to the topic at hand:

My wife died of a dreaded disease 16 years ago, at the age of 37. A couple of years before she was diagnosed with this disease, my wife told me that she and three of her closest friends were planning to go and see a "renowned" palm-reading fortune teller, who was scheduled to visit our town a couple weeks hence. I ridiculed the notion, of course...and didn't give the matter a second thought. Well, the weeks passed and I got home after work one night...and my wife eventually told me about her fortune teller experience. She told me that the fortune teller read the palms of her three friends, and gave each of them specific predictions of events which the future supposedly had in store for them. And then it was my wife's turn to get her palm read. And, what did this fortune teller say about my wife's future? Nothing! She told her that she couldn't see a thing on my wife's palm...and she refunded her money. At the time I thought nothing of this incident, of course...but I keep remembering it over the last 20 years. Did the fortune teller see something about my wife's pending ordeal, and was unwilling to disclose it to her? Since when are the fortune tellers in the habit of refunding the money of their gullible customers?

Questions...questions...and no answers in sight.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

We were able to sniff out those who falsely pranced about as though they knew stuff, but every word was a dead giveaway they were full of it. After learning about dinosaurs and the age of the earth in public school, my literal minded rabbi in Hebrew school, 4 afternoons after public school a week, would actually raise his voice at me for asking about the apparent difference in ages of his iron clad knee jerk version of 6,000 years, and what was taught to me by rational teachers. Who explained how we knew it was much, much older without the need to tell me god was unhappy with me thinking and learning.

Of course as I grew and met other non literal minded rabbis, and teachers who respected learning and knowledge, I realized who the pretenders were. Whether short sighted Jews or Christians, their odor does not pass the "sniff test"

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Every thistle you post reeks.

Prov 17:10
10 A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding
Than a hundred blows into a fool.
NASB

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by mountainman

Two years ago on a bleak fall day devoid of hope or character, a teen golfer jumped in front of my friend, Chris, and I on the first tee of a golf course we consider hallowed ground.

The kid moved-and, it turned out, spoke-in a pained, deliberate manner that indicated some handicap or mental issue. A big surgical scar on the side of his shaven head made it apparent he had suffered some grave injury.

Somewhat glum, but increasingly communicative, "Duncan" had retained his faculties, and informed us that a full recovery was expected. A shotgun he was cleaning, he recounted without prompting, had gone off accidentally and blasted the side of his skull off.

Duncan was dead when the paramedics arrived, and according to a wall clock behind him stopped by the bullet, should have stayed dead, no matter how strong his heart or tenacious his will to survive.

Whatever the case, the kid had been dead for a relative eternity before being revived, and did not pause or waffle when asked the obvious question.

"There is nothing," he said. "There is no you. You're just gone."

So I don't need to watch attention whores (of BOTH genders} glorify themselves by gushing to Dr. Phil about dead relatives strutting forth to remind them of "important work still to be done here on earth," or about ridiculous lights or tunnels or harps. Because I learned the truth from a shattered teen boy on that dark afternoon.

Now, please, good sirs, believers, and experts on all things scripture, by all means, show me the fallacy of my thinking. But first, I must request..make sure you speak from experience. That you've at some time been dead, I mean, for just as long as Duncan was.

And what profound conclusions are we supposed to draw from this anecdotal evidence of someone's personal, subjective experience? Besides, talk with Light and he will give you 1,001 instances of NDEs whose experiences were quite different from Duncan's. Of course, what Light won't tell you is that there are plenty of NDE folks out there who also supposedly saw the dark side...and some. (Can't blame Light, though, for this slight lie by omission 'cause he likes to keep things light.)

Enjoyed your short story though...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You have tried from the very first post you made.

In addition to your usual "you are damned" or "you will find out after death how wrong you are", you refuse to discuss differing views rationally and make fun of other beliefs.

You go after Judaism, Catholicism. Islam and Buddhism, knowing squat about them, and justify your scorn claiming the bible allows you to demean others of those persuasions. And the kicker. without any understanding of how the world actually works, lecture others on how much of an expert you are on everything.

Yes, you can't dissuade or stop anyone's beliefs by any reasoned discussion, but you sure as hell try, and bore everyone to tears.

Spoken by a guy who knows less than nothing about biblical Christianity and who is the biggest bigot on this forum and has consistently gone on the attack against Evangelical Christianity.

It is truly written about people like you:

Prov 18:2
2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
NASB

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Spoken by a guy who knows less than nothing about biblical Christianity and who is the biggest bigot on this forum and has consistently gone on the attack against Evangelical Christianity.

It is truly written about people like you:

Prov 18:2
2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
NASB

I only go after hateful fear mongering evangelicals like you.

Shove your literal minded "classic comic" book version of biblical Christianity where the sun don't shine.