It's on! The Official Boycott Keeneland Thread.

[cj]

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Last year was a washout with sloppy tracks and only the stakes race staying on turf. I'm really, really surprised they weren't up today total.

[NJ Stinks]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

ROFL !!

What say you tell the whole story instead of "a different story"


How clueless do you think people are, when buying this stuff, while you compare a day with a carryover of $300K+ to a random and insignificant day perhaps depleted even further by Kee having had a carryover a day before?


You're on your way to getting buried, just as you did with the Canterbury pipe dream despite announcing wild, day-over-day gains of 48% on that first Sunday of the meet while excitedly comparing a sloppy-track day one year with a fast-track corresponding day the next year.

Besides, all that matters in this equation is revenue-from-handle, which you conveniently never dare to report.

Beyond that, how many years has it been at SA...? and you still haven't convinced them to "reverse their decision (to raise takeout)".


You are simply not thinking correctly about this entire equation.

See if you can grasp this. I rarely play Santa Anita nowadays but I used to play SA a lot. "That" takeout issue got me out of the habit. And I haven't made one bet at Keeneland this fall and before this meet I bet more money there than I did at NY tracks when Keeneland was open.

You can sit there and tell me Keeneland is rolling in cash this meet despite losing my action. My response is simply this. I seriously doubt there are thousands of people in this country that bet as much as I do. Losing a life-long horseplayer like me if you run a racetrack because of an increase in takeout reminds me of other idiots in my past. Namely, bookies who were sure there were enough fools out there with a need to bet football games even if the price to play was 6-5 rather than 11-10.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Matt Heggarty's recent DRF article appeared under a headline that reads Keeneland handle declines leveling off:
http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-ha...lines-leveling




But Thursday's results (down $2M 28.48%) on a day with perfect weather and comparable field size vs. the same Thurs last year were more encouraging - and tell a different story.

I believe we can build on that - by asking players who are currently boycotting to reach out to other players who might not even know there's a boycott.

We're obviously doing some of that.

But if we can do more of that that:

I really think we can have a lot more days like Thursday and convince Keeneland to reverse their decision.



Let me put it this way:

I'm in this for as long as it takes. I haven't bet a dime on Keeneland and I won't until they reverse their decision.

But I'm only as good as the other players supporting this.

Even if we have a lot more days like Thursday between now and the end of the Keeneland meet, there's a very good chance Keeneland will hope players will forget about the boycott between now and next April.

To that end, allow me to float an idea:

There IS another meet immediately following Keeneland.

Churchill.

Remember those guys?

What do other players think about keeping the boycott going once Keeneland ends?



-jp

.

I'm in thats a good idea. Remember Kee and CD trying to take down Ky Downs and you know they are behind them not getting any extra meet days. I say f'em!!

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Isn't AskinHaskin the guy who keeps telling us that "we and our ilk" are responsible for the state that the game currently finds itself in? Has he ever clarified what he meant by that...even though we have asked him to do so time and again? What makes us think that he'll be any more forthcoming with an explanation this time?

IMO...he is the classic drive-by shooter...who isn't NEARLY as clever as he thinks he is.

you are correct sir-same person

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

ROFL !!

What say you tell the whole story instead of "a different story"


How clueless do you think people are, when buying this stuff, while you compare a day with a carryover of $300K+ to a random and insignificant day perhaps depleted even further by Kee having had a carryover a day before?


You're on your way to getting buried, just as you did with the Canterbury pipe dream despite announcing wild, day-over-day gains of 48% on that first Sunday of the meet while excitedly comparing a sloppy-track day one year with a fast-track corresponding day the next year.

Besides, all that matters in this equation is revenue-from-handle, which you conveniently never dare to report.

Beyond that, how many years has it been at SA...? and you still haven't convinced them to "reverse their decision (to raise takeout)".


You are simply not thinking correctly about this entire equation.

What is the trend for SA handle in the last 20 years?

[rastajenk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Isn't AskinHaskin the guy who keeps telling us that "we and our ilk" are responsible for the state that the game currently finds itself in? Has he ever clarified what he meant by that...even though we have asked him to do so time and again? What makes us think that he'll be any more forthcoming with an explanation this time?

Originally Posted by thaskalos

When it comes right down to it...we horseplayers have no-one to blame but OURSELVES when it comes to the game's controversial issues.

Seems to me that you do know what he means.

[MONEY]

Post #226 is reporting that Keeneland's handle is down 9.3%

I'm not a mathematician, some one that is a mathematician with all of the proper pool information should do the math.

Here's my math.

Last Year the take out on win bets was 16%, this year it's 17.5%

On 10/20 the Win handle was
2,484,951 times take out 17.5% = $434,866

Add 9.3%
Last years handle might have been
2,716,051 times takeout 16% = $434,568

That's a positive $265.00 for Keeneland on win bets
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about exactas

Last year the takeout was 19%, this year it's 22%

On 10/20 the Ex. handle was
1,592,337 times takeout 22% = $350,314

Add 9.3%
Last years handle might have been
1,740,424 times takeout 19% = $330,680

That's a positive $19,634 for Keeneland
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks to me that Keeneland is making more money on handle this year than last year and that was their goal.

I don't know how the raise in takeout is affecting the attendance.
If attendance is significantly down, Keeneland could lose lots of money on parking and concessions
which could washout the profits on handle.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by MONEY

Post #226 is reporting that Keeneland's handle is down 9.3%

I'm not a mathematician, some one that is a mathematician with all of the proper pool information should do the math.

Here's my math.

Last Year the take out on win bets was 16%, this year it's 17.5%

On 10/20 the Win handle was
2,484,951 times take out 17.5% = $434,866

Add 9.3%
Last years handle might have been
2,716,051 times takeout 16% = $434,568

That's a positive $265.00 for Keeneland on win bets
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about exactas

Last year the takeout was 19%, this year it's 22%

On 10/20 the Ex. handle was
1,592,337 times takeout 22% = $350,314

Add 9.3%
Last years handle might have been
1,740,424 times takeout 19% = $330,680

That's a positive $19,634 for Keeneland
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks to me that Keeneland is making more money on handle this year than last year and that was their goal.

I don't know how the raise in takeout is affecting the attendance.
If attendance is significantly down, Keeneland could lose lots of money on parking and concessions
which could washout the profits on handle.

Can you run the numbers on what they make when their customer goes broke?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

Seems to me that you do know what he means.

I don't think so...because he also blames us for driving the "common folk" away from the game. We hurt the track, and we hurt the other players...he says.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I don't think so...because he also blames us for driving the "common folk" away from the game. We hurt the track, and we hurt the other players...he says.

You've posted similar things many times, it's one of your recurring themes. Maybe you should ask Askin Haskin out for coffee, make a date of it.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by castaway01

You've posted similar things many times, it's one of your recurring themes. Maybe you should ask Askin Haskin out for coffee, make a date of it.

Hitting-and-running ain't my M.O.

I wouldn't presume to dissuade YOU from doing it, though.

[therussmeister]

Originally Posted by MONEY

Post #226 is reporting that Keeneland's handle is down 9.3%

I'm not a mathematician, some one that is a mathematician with all of the proper pool information should do the math.

Here's my math.

Last Year the take out on win bets was 16%, this year it's 17.5%

On 10/20 the Win handle was
2,484,951 times take out 17.5% = $434,866

Add 9.3%
Last years handle might have been
2,716,051 times takeout 16% = $434,568

That's a positive $265.00 for Keeneland on win bets
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about exactas

Last year the takeout was 19%, this year it's 22%

On 10/20 the Ex. handle was
1,592,337 times takeout 22% = $350,314

Add 9.3%
Last years handle might have been
1,740,424 times takeout 19% = $330,680

That's a positive $19,634 for Keeneland
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks to me that Keeneland is making more money on handle this year than last year and that was their goal.

I don't know how the raise in takeout is affecting the attendance.
If attendance is significantly down, Keeneland could lose lots of money on parking and concessions
which could washout the profits on handle.

The problem with analysis such as this is Keeneland only gets the listed takeout rate on bets placed through them. Otherwise they get whatever their signal fee is. Did they raise that this year too?

[startngate]

Originally Posted by MONEY

It looks to me that Keeneland is making more money on handle this year than last year and that was their goal.

Those numbers are only true if the handle you are reporting are 100% on-track. Keeneland only gets the host fee for all off-track bets, which would be substantially less revenue than you are reporting.

Having said that, I still suspect the end result will be handle down 8-10%, and revenue will be level or slightly up.

[thaskalos]

IMO...it's important for this boycott to have a noticeable effect, because the other tracks are observing the player reaction to the recent Keeneland takeout hike...and this player-reaction is likely to effect the track takeouts in the future. Taking the Keeneland takeout on its own...it's hard for me to generate any real "animosity" against Keeneland...because I can see their side of the argument. They have a marquee meet, with classy racing and full fields...and they still top the HANA takeout chart even AFTER the takeout hike (Kentucky Downs doesn't count, IMO). In view of this...how can the player get legitimately "mad" at Keeneland...while continuing to support tracks like Aqueduct...where a much-inferior product is priced even HIGHER?

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

...and they still top the HANA takeout chart even AFTER the takeout hike

Thask,

I'm not sure what you're looking at...

Goto the 2017 HANA Track Ratings on our site - here:
http://www.horseplayersassociation.o...7Sortable.html

Click the column labeled "Takeout Score"

Which should cause the page to sort the tracks by Takeout Score...

You should be able to see that, after the takeout hike, Keeneland has a takeout score of 1.72

Which puts them about 30th among the 60+ tracks that we covered.

The only A track with a lower takeout score than Keeneland is Churchill.



-jp

.