Rapid Redux

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by cj

I'm not making things up, this stuff happened. I'm not sure why you think I would have some secret agenda against a horse.

Isn't it just possible I am annoyed because of a total lack of integrity being displayed by the connections and the stupid press following right along rather than that I am worried about some streak? You know me better than this.

I don't think you are making anything up. I just don't see the big deal.

The races are being run cleanly and handicappers know who is in the field before the race and can bet accordingly.

If the connections and fans are enjoying watching the horse try to keep the streak going and the media is promoting the horse and bringing a few extra people to the track to see him and bet on his races, who cares as long as nothing illegal is being done (like jockeys pulling speed horses, stiffing horses etc..).

The only way any potential deals would bother me is if this was a Grade 1 horse I thought was overrated and I wanted to see the horse get exposed and lose (assuming deals are not against the rules because I don't even know if they are). I guess I am seeing it through my own eyes.

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

If the connections and fans are enjoying watching the horse try to keep the streak going and the media is promoting the horse and bringing a few extra people to the track to see him and bet on his races, who cares as long as nothing illegal is being done (like jockeys pulling speed horses, stiffing horses etc..).

Would you be ok with people being paid to enter and later scratch? I'm not, nor would I ever be.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Like I said, I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Well that was what the debate was about.

Everyone knows what the goal of owners and trainers are. It's irrelevant to what the discussion was about.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The only way any potential deals would bother me is if this was a Grade 1 horse I thought was overrated and I wanted to see the horse get exposed and lose (assuming deals are not against the rules because I don't even know if they are). I guess I am seeing it through my own eyes.

It has nothing to do with the class of horse at all. It has to do with integrity.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by cj

Would you be ok with people being paid to enter and later scratch? I'm not, nor would I ever be.

I have to think about it a little.

If they paid people to enter their horse so the race would fill and get carded knowing full well they were going to scratch, IMO it's up to the track to put a stop to that kind of thing because the track would start carding unattractive betting races. The thing is, when tracks have a star horse, they usually go out of their way to convince other owners/trainers to enter so the race will fill or they write a race for the horse and beg. Who knows what kind of promises are made to get that done. This may fall into that category.

If you can enter a horse in the Derby to lock out a major competitor knowing full well you are going to scratch, that's a problem that needs to be corrected. (I think they just fixed that for next year with an AE list)

I think it's more or less the responsibility of the track to ensure that no one is doing anything that gives them an unfair advantage or that is screwing up the attractiveness of their racing. I suspect everyone knows what's going on in this case, but they feel RR is enough an attraction that it makes for a better racing card.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

It has nothing to do with the class of horse at all. It has to do with integrity.

Do you have a problem with a racing secretary writing a special race for a star horse and making promises to the connections of other weak horses so they'll enter, the race will fill, and the star will get an easy prep?

There's a similar dynamic here.

RR is not just any horse anymore. The early part of streak gave him a kind of celebrity status that draws attention to these smaller tracks and probably increases their handle. That's why people are going out of their way to make sure races are written for him, the races fill, and they are looking the other way if deals are being made to increase the probability that he wins.

If you or I started offering deals to other connections to get easy races for our unknown cheap claimers, they would put a stop to it because it would be screwing up the competitiveness of the races.

It's happening because "everyone" involved feels it's a good deal for them the same way the owner/trainer of some 35K horses enter against a Grade 1 horse to make sure he gets an easy prep even though they can't win.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Do you have a problem with a racing secretary writing a special race for a star horse and making promises to the connections of other weak horses so they'll enter, the race will fill, and the star will get an easy prep?

There's a similar dynamic here.

RR is not just any horse anymore. The early part of streak gave him a kind of celebrity status that draws attention to these smaller tracks and probably increases their handle. That's why people are going out of their way to make sure races are written for him, the races fill, and they are looking the other way if deals are being made.

If you or I started offering deals to other connections to get easy races for our unknown cheap claimers, they would put a stop to it because it would be screwing up the competitiveness of the races.

It's happening because "everyone" involved feels it's a good deal for them.

With all due respect to Rapid Redux (in case he's reading), he's not a star horse. What you are talking about is apples and oranges. Races get written all of the time for certain horses. It is what it is.

But people allegedly making deals in order to keep others from running, to ensure they have the easiest path to victory possible is a whole other kind of problem. Again, that is what the debate is about.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

Well that was what the debate was about.

Everyone knows what the goal of owners and trainers are. It's irrelevant to what the discussion was about.

Maybe my perception of the comments is off, but personally, I think if the criticism was solely about any deals being made, no one would have bothered mentioning how the streak wasn't significant because it was earned against weak horses or how it was diminished by the deals. The focus just changed later on in thread.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

With all due respect to Rapid Redux (in case he's reading), he's not a star horse. What you are talking about is apples and oranges. Races get written all of the time for certain horses. It is what it is.

But people allegedly making deals in order to keep others from running, to ensure they have the easiest path to victory possible is a whole other kind of problem. Again, that is what the debate is about.

He's a star "attraction" which makes him more valuable to the track he's running at than the typical horse of his caliber.

Do think there's snowball's chance in hell I would have looked at the LRL card yesterday if RR wasn't running?

Absolutely none. The same is true for of a lot of other people that either bet on him or against him.

It's not that I don't understand that paying people to scratch is highly suspect at a minimum. I'm saying it's happening because everyone is allowing it to happen the same way they allow the racing secretary to gift wrap a prep race for a Grade 1 horse at the expense of other horses. It's because they are also getting something out of it (a promise to reciprocate instead of money etc..)

Anyone who is serious about the game doesn't care about the streak because they know he's not a great horse and there's nothing historically significant about it. It's more or less just fun to see if he can keep firing.

If you have a complaint, it's with the track authorities that are apparently allowing deals to occur that lots of other people know about and writing races for a claimer to keep winning without being at risk of being claimed.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

He's a star "attraction" which makes him more valuable to the track he's running at than the typical horse of his caliber.

Do think there's snowball's chance in hell I would have looked at the LRL card yesterday if RR wasn't running?

Absolutely none. The same is true for of a lot of other people that either bet on him or against him.

It's not that I don't understand that paying people to scratch is highly suspect at a minimum. I'm saying it's happening because everyone is allowing it to happen the same way they allow the racing secretary to gift wrap a prep race for a Grade 1 horse at the expense of other horses. It's because they are also getting something out of it (a promise to reciprocate instead of money etc..)

Anyone who is serious about the game doesn't care about the streak because they know he's not a great horse and there's nothing historically significant about it. It's more or less just fun to see if he can keep firing.

If you have a complaint, it's with the track authorities that are apparently allowing deals to occur that lots of other people know about and writing races for a claimer to keep winning without being at risk of being claimed.

I don't agree with this mentality. My complaint is with the people allegedly making the deals. You feel differently. I've said my piece and there isn't much more I can say or really want to.

See how easy that was?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

My complaint is with the people allegedly making the deals. You feel differently. I've said my piece and there isn't much more I can say or really want to.

See how easy that was?

We don't feel that that differently. Your complaint is with the track authorities for allowing it (assuming it's happening and not illegal). I'm just explaining why they are allowing it and why the other owners and trainers apparently aren't complaining. I understand it and don't think it's a huge deal because it's not impacting the integrity of the races.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

We don't feel that that differently. Your complaint is with the track authorities for allowing it (assuming it's happening and not illegal). I'm just explaining why they are allowing it and why the other owners and trainers apparently aren't complaining. I understand it and don't think it's a huge deal because it's not impacting the integrity of the races.

No, my complaint isn't with the track authorities.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I don't think you are making anything up. I just don't see the big deal.

The races are being run cleanly and handicappers know who is in the field before the race and can bet accordingly.

If the connections and fans are enjoying watching the horse try to keep the streak going and the media is promoting the horse and bringing a few extra people to the track to see him and bet on his races, who cares as long as nothing illegal is being done (like jockeys pulling speed horses, stiffing horses etc..).

The only way any potential deals would bother me is if this was a Grade 1 horse I thought was overrated and I wanted to see the horse get exposed and lose (assuming deals are not against the rules because I don't even know if they are). I guess I am seeing it through my own eyes.

This is the way I see it as well.

This is just an "advertisement", as far as I am concerned...for a game in dire need of a small ray of the spotlight.

Were shady deals made in the background, to insure that the winning streak remained intact?

And did the authorities look the other way...in their zeal to keep this "feel-good" story alive?

Probably...

Since this is probably a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence...I thing we should give them a "pass" on this one...

After all...we have much more important things to complain about.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

No, my complaint isn't with the track authorities.

I wish you'd explain exactly what the problem is because you aren't making much sense to me.

You think it's wrong for these guys to supposedly be making deals, but OK for the track to either not know about it (when other people claim to) or not stop it?

That makes no sense.

If you really just have a serious problem with any potential deals, it's on the track to make rules to prevent it and then enforce the rules.

It sounds more personal.

It sounds more like you don't like the idea of these guys and their horse getting a lot of notoriety for winning 20+ races in a row because they keep running in easy spots and it's burning you up even more that they might be manipulating the competition to help accomplish it because you want them to lose and not gain anything.

It's just a story that is exciting some of the fans and the industry is going along with it because the publicity helps the sport.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I wish you'd explain exactly what the problem is because you aren't making much sense to me.

You think it's wrong for these guys to supposedly be making deals, but OK for the track to either not know about it (when other people claim to) or not stop it?

That makes no sense.

It sounds more personal.

It sounds more like you don't like the idea of these guys and their horse getting a lot of notoriety for winning 20+ races in a row because they keep running in easy spots and it's burning you up even more that they might be manipulating the competition to help accomplish it because you want them to lose and not gain from it.

I think people should enjoy it for what it is. It's a story that is exciting some of the fans and the industry is going along with it because the publicity helps the sport. Everyone knows he's beating up on claimers and some of the serious competition has scratched to make it easier.

I tried telling you what my issue was already. You seemed more interested in telling me what you perceive my feelings to be and making some apples to oranges comparison, instead of just reading what they are. Who cares how you think people should enjoy the story? It's irrelevant.

One more time. If what has been alleged is true, I think it is wrong. Very wrong. In a game where we should expect integrity, if this is going on it shows zero.

I'm unaware of the specific rules, so it may not even be illegal. I don't care. To me, allegedly paying connections of other horses to not run is wrong. And then hiring someone who has never trained before for you, days before two of his horses (who subsequently scratched) were set to face your "star horse" indicates there is more to this "story" then we are being told.

I don't care if he wins 100 races in a row. Why should I? I'm not betting into the pools in his races. I never said the track was right or wrong. I don't care about the track either. My concern is with the alleged back door deals.

I can't explain it any easier than that. You might not agree (it's 1/9 you aren't going to) and that's cool. But I can't be any more clear on what my complaint is.