|
|
09-19-2017, 10:22 AM
|
#3946
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Ad hominem– Appeal to motive – a subtype of the ad hominem fallacy that dismisses an idea by questioning the motives of its proposer.
|
YOU, sir, clearly implied same in your post. Don't blame me for your bumbling posts.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
09-19-2017, 03:14 PM
|
#3947
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
...lame excuses...
|
Argumentum ad lapidem ...
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-19-2017, 03:31 PM
|
#3948
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
YOU, sir, clearly implied same in your post.
|
The implication exists only in your mind. You are unable to make an intelligent response so you resort to ad hominem attack. Even if your charge were true it does not address the issue at hand. Motivation has absolutely no bearing on the validity of an argument. Your speculation on my motives may give you comfort but that's all.
__________________
Sapere aude
Last edited by Actor; 09-19-2017 at 03:38 PM.
|
|
|
09-19-2017, 03:52 PM
|
#3949
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
The implication exists only in your mind. You are unable to make an intelligent response so you resort to ad hominem attack. Even if your charge were true it does not address the issue at hand. Motivation has absolutely no bearing on the validity of an argument. Your speculation on my motives may give you comfort but that's all.
|
You've never had an argument. All you have ever brought to the table were complaints -- motivated by your hate for the gospel message. Learn the difference already between a valid argument and complaints.
Have you found any ancient source, yet, that the denies the existence of Christ?
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
09-19-2017, 10:48 PM
|
#3950
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Learn the difference already between a valid argument and complaints.
|
You are the one who needs to learn that. Since you are so fond of dictionaries here are two from Merriam-Webster.
Argument - a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view
Complaint - a formal allegation against a party
What have I posted that fits the second definition?
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-19-2017, 10:54 PM
|
#3951
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Have you found any ancient source, yet, that the denies the existence of Christ?
|
The Docetics. Don't you read what I post?
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-20-2017, 10:11 AM
|
#3952
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
The Docetics. Don't you read what I post?
|
The Meaning of Docetism
Docetism is easily explained: It is a belief that Jesus Christ did not actually die, and therefore was never resurrected bodily. A number of Christian theologies have arrived at this conclusion, in different ways, so Docetism comes in a number of forms.
The heresy doesn't deny Jesus' existence; rather it denies his bodily resurrection. Other forms of this heresies deny his physical existence but not his spiritual existence, etc.
http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/docet.html
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
09-20-2017, 03:17 PM
|
#3953
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
The heresy doesn't deny Jesus' existence; rather it denies his bodily resurrection. Other forms of this heresies deny his physical existence but not his spiritual existence, etc.
|
"It (docetism) ... started from the conviction that a divinity, such as Jesus would have been, could not truly enter into matter, that the very idea of God in human flesh was repugnant and indeed impossible." - Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle, Appendix 3.
"Later ... the dosetic stance shifted." Opus Citatum.
"... the so-called Docetists insisted that he only seemed to have a real body of flesh but in fact had lived on earth as a phantom." - G.A. Wells, Did Jesus Exist?
If you insist that Jesus existed as a spiritual being then that is a different question altogether, viz., does the supernatural exist?
This entire line of argument is a straw man. If you apply the same approach to the question of geocentrism or the cause of disease you will find no ancient writings supporting heliocentrism or germ theory, yet it is highly doubtful that peer review well ever falsify heliocentrism or germ theory.
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-20-2017, 04:59 PM
|
#3954
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
"It (docetism) ... started from the conviction that a divinity, such as Jesus would have been, could not truly enter into matter, that the very idea of God in human flesh was repugnant and indeed impossible." - Earl Doherty, The Jesus Puzzle, Appendix 3.
"Later ... the dosetic stance shifted." Opus Citatum.
"... the so-called Docetists insisted that he only seemed to have a real body of flesh but in fact had lived on earth as a phantom." - G.A. Wells, Did Jesus Exist?
If you insist that Jesus existed as a spiritual being then that is a different question altogether, viz., does the supernatural exist?
This entire line of argument is a straw man. If you apply the same approach to the question of geocentrism or the cause of disease you will find no ancient writings supporting heliocentrism or germ theory, yet it is highly doubtful that peer review well ever falsify heliocentrism or germ theory.
|
It's not a different question. The "so-called" Docetists" did not deny Jesus' existence. They simply denied that he existed as a human being. Denying events in Christ's life is not the same as denying his existence. Denying the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is not analogous to denying his existence.
And by the way, the apostle John (an eyewitness to the risen Christ) warned Christians about this heresy (cf. 1Jn 4:2; 2Jn 7; Jn 1:14).
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
09-20-2017, 08:21 PM
|
#3955
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
It's not a different question. The "so-called" Docetists" did not deny Jesus' existence. They simply denied that he existed as a human being.
|
If he existed but not as human being then we're off to the land of woo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Denying events in Christ's life is not the same as denying his existence. Denying the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is not analogous to denying his existence.
|
But if he never died, was not buried, and was never resurrected then he ceases to be special. He's just the founder of another religious cult like Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and Reverend Moon.
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-20-2017, 09:31 PM
|
#3956
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
If he existed but not as human being then we're off to the land of woo.
But if he never died, was not buried, and was never resurrected then he ceases to be special. He's just the founder of another religious cult like Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and Reverend Moon.
|
Understand this: Docetism is a form of Gnosticism,. Gnostics believed that all matter was inherently evil. These gnostics, therefore, did the very thing the apostle John warned against, that is, they denied the physicality of Jesus (that he came "in the flesh") but not his existence.
Secondly, whether Christ died, was buried and was resurrected has no bearing on your claim of Christ's non-existence. Existence or no existence is the issue here. So...it's back to the drawing board for you, since docetics and gnostics never denied Christ's existence. That wasn't there heresy.
Finally, by denying Christ's existence you've been living in the "land of woo" for a very long time. Just for your info...
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
09-20-2017, 11:29 PM
|
#3957
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Secondly, whether Christ died, was buried and was resurrected has no bearing on your claim of Christ's non-existence.
|
Really? Why not?
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-21-2017, 10:10 AM
|
#3958
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
Really? Why not?
|
Pay attention. I'll say this one more time: Events in a person's life are not analogous to life itself. This is so typical of you: You equivocate by trying to redefine existence by conflating events with existence.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
09-21-2017, 02:03 PM
|
#3959
|
Librocubicularist
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,466
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Pay attention. I'll say this one more time: Events in a person's life are not analogous to life itself. This is so typical of you: You equivocate by trying to redefine existence by conflating events with existence.
|
That does not make any sense at all? Hast thou slain the jabberwock?
__________________
Sapere aude
|
|
|
09-21-2017, 02:29 PM
|
#3960
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,884
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor
That does not make any sense at all?
|
Are you asking me or telling me?
But either way, it makes perfectly good sense! The fact that I didn't fly jet planes in the air force, or participate in other events in my life, does not negate my existence. The docetics didn't question Jesus' existence; they questioned his FORM of existence.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|