Religion III

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

You could snap your fingers before you send monetary aid or donate food to feed a child. Myself, I give to food for the poor, but I generally don't snap my fingers.

You understood my point.

This conversation is pointless...and ended.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by TJDave

You understood my point.

This conversation is pointless...and ended.

What is your point? My point is God works through man and man's free will. Is that your point too?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

No, Boxcar...I don't "know" about any of that. I do know that these things were written up in some ancient documents by some anonymous Israeli nomads...but I'm not willing to accept ANYTHING that I read as actual fact. I take as facts only the things that I can actually verify for myself. And, even if I did actually believe what is written in the bible, and I saw that God plays favorites among his creations...then I would have the same questions about his "divinity" as I do now. You can't have "chosen people"...and then demand reverence and worship from the world at large.

But you know all about the miracle of the manna God provided for the Israelites in the wilderness. The "Israeli nomads" factor didn't seem to enter your mind

As I said just very recently, if you want God to treat everyone fairly, then His holy and righteous nature would require him to give everyone what they rightly deserve -- justice. That would be just and fair of God. But God's grace does not require Him to have compassion or mercy toward anyone, since all are sinners -- all God's creation is under His curse.

Rom 9:15
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
NASB

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

And created man in his image.


Our father which art in heaven...give us this day our daily bread...

Why do you revere a father who withholds bread from his children?

Who told you that all in the world are his children? From where did you get that notion?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But you know all about the miracle of the manna God provided for the Israelites in the wilderness. The "Israeli nomads" factor didn't seem to enter your mind

As I said just very recently, if you want God to treat everyone fairly, then His holy and righteous nature would require him to give everyone what they rightly deserve -- justice. That would be just and fair of God. But God's grace does not require Him to have compassion or mercy toward anyone, since all are sinners -- all God's creation is under His curse.

Rom 9:15
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
NASB

I understand you completely, Boxcar...it's you who doesn't understand me. I know that I am under God's curse. And, since he curses me...I feel justified in cursing him. Need I explain myself any further? How can I revere and worship someone who holds me under his curse? He created me as an imperfect human being, and then he curses me for my imperfections...and I am supposed to sing praises to his "divinity"?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, if 20,000 kids starve in the meantime, that wouldn't be considered too many? Why can't both avenues be pursued? Are they mutually exclusive to each other?

What are the two avenues? One seems to be that I impoverish myself and that will cure the problem? You are the one who gets this strategy from a holy book? Are you going to impoverish yourself too? If not, why not?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

What are the two avenues? One seems to be that I impoverish myself and that will cure the problem? You are the one who gets this strategy from a holy book? Are you going to impoverish yourself too? If not, why not?

You'll figure it out. Go back and read both our posts on the subject.

P.S. As much as I'd love to, I can't feed any starving children. I'm maxed out with other good and worthy causes.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How come God allows any evil in the world?

That's the Riddle of Epicurus.

1. If God has the power to prevent evil but chooses not to then he is malevolent.
2. If God wants to prevent evil be is powerless to do so then he is not omnipotent.
3. If God has the power to prevent evil and wants to prevent evil then why is there evil.
4. If God is powerless to prevent evil and chooses not to prevent evil then why call him God?

The obvious answer to the riddle is there is no god.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

P.S. As much as I'd love to, I can't feed any starving children. I'm maxed out with other good and worthy causes.

So am I.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You'll figure it out. Go back and read both our posts on the subject.

P.S. As much as I'd love to, I can't feed any starving children. I'm maxed out with other good and worthy causes.

That's exactly right. You are maxed-out with other worthwhile things...and so is everybody else. And the lives of these starving children are dependent upon the time-availability of busy people like us. A sorry state of affairs...IMO.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

That's the Riddle of Epicurus.

1. If God has the power to prevent evil but chooses not to then he is malevolent.
2. If God wants to prevent evil be is powerless to do so then he is not omnipotent.
3. If God has the power to prevent evil and wants to prevent evil then why is there evil.
4. If God is powerless to prevent evil and chooses not to prevent evil then why call him God?

The obvious answer to the riddle is there is no god.

The only person who was more misunderstood than Jesus, was Epicurus. This man was a hero...and his followers turned his teaching into the hedonistic claptrap that was the antithesis of what he was about.

[hcap]

Sorry the distorted abrahamic god ouitside us not omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent or omnipresent. Contrary to what has been taught. The divine outside of us follows the laws of accident and partakes in the dance with the chaos and the negative

Rather the seed of higher mind within may have access to all of the above. Once again religious literal minded idol worshiper confuse of the inner for the outer.

“God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought."
.....― Joseph Campbell

I will add, both within and without.

There is no justice in a plaque or children starving and suffering on the outer realm. However there are plagues and sickness and suffering within and by observing honestly (omnipresent,and omniscient ) we can stem the damage (omnipotent) by having a handle on how not to give in to those afflictions and ignorance psychologically. Being a witness to those inner processes is taught in many Eastern traditions. Stillness allows a quiet voice to be heard. Not all at once, but neither does a mustard seed grow overnight.

Meditation and prayer help us listen in. Theoretical debates only do so much.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by hcap

Sorry the distorted abrahamic god ouitside us not omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent or omnipresent. Contrary to what has been taught. The divine outside of us follows the laws of accident and partakes in the dance with the chaos and the negative

Rather the seed of higher mind within may have access to all of the above. Once again religious literal minded idol worshiper confuse of the inner for the outer.

“God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought."
.....― Joseph Campbell

I will add, both within and without.

There is no justice in a plaque or children starving and suffering on the outer realm. However there are plagues and sickness and suffering within and by observing honestly (omnipresent,and omniscient ) we can stem the damage (omnipotent) by having a handle on how not to give in to those afflictions and ignorance psychologically. Being a witness to those inner processes is taught in many Eastern traditions. Stillness allows a quiet voice to be heard. Not all at once, but neither does a mustard seed grow overnight.

Meditation and prayer help us listen in. Theoretical debates only do so much.

Be careful TJ will accuse you of obfuscating.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hey...if you want to whitewash Christianity to make it more appealing to you, have it. People have been doing that for centuries.

The term I used to describe Boxcar's posts in the religion threads is "blackwashing", which means that superficially he claims to be supporting Christianity, but in reality (as Thask has pointed out) he's driving people away from the faith with his underlying message of insane dogma. Anyone with a shred of decency and wisdom is put off by his tone, regardless of their faith.

It's quite obvious to me that this is intentional by Boxcar.

The two mysteries that come to light over this are:

• how does Boxcar outrank Thask in rep power (are upvotes for sale)?
• why don't the moderators kick this obvious troll to the curb?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

That's exactly right. You are maxed-out with other worthwhile things...and so is everybody else. And the lives of these starving children are dependent upon the time-availability of busy people like us. A sorry state of affairs...IMO.

So, you're maxed out, too, heh? And that's why you blame God -- because you're maxed out along with everyone else in world, including all the billionaires? So, God is obligated to pick up the slack? Is that deal?