HANA should let TVG know that what they have done is bad for all horseplayers - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

InsideThePylons-MW · 06-20-2009, 04:11 AM

TVG has signed an exclusive with Woodbine/Mohawk and are going to be promoting them heavily in the future.

This is a horrendous precedent that will be bad for the game and bad for every horseplayer.

TVG, as usual, will be promoting......

P-6's = 25% takeout
P-4's = 25% takeout
P-3's = 26.3% takeout
Supers = 26.3% takeout

Thankfully TVG doesn't really promote trifectas at a whopping 27% takeout

While some people will say, so what, it doesn't matter. I don't bet there.....It matters a lot. It is a huge step backwards in trying to send a message that lower takeout matters and should be promoted. It takes more money out of circulation for ALL tracks now that more bettors will be exposed to these tracks for the first time and lose a % of their churn factor to the criminal takeout rates....etc.

I know the damage is already done, but since TVG has been portrayed as a supporter of HANA and all horseplayers, HANA should at least make a statement that this is bad for all horseplayers and is also bad for racing.

Obviously no statement should be made if they disagree with this.

Note: I am not a member of HANA so maybe no one will care about what I have to say.

rrbauer · 06-20-2009, 04:35 AM

It's interesting that you show up telling HANA what it should do but it's not worth your time to become a member. While your assessment of Betfair's opening gambit into the North American market of hosting and promoting a high-takeout venue that is being subsidized by alternative gaming is spot on; your indifference towards, or resistance to, becoming a member begs the question: Why?

Imriledup · 06-20-2009, 06:43 AM

is TVG supposed to care about horseplayers? They're just running a business. TVG does whats good for TVG, being 'behind' the horseplayer isn't even a blip on their radar screen.

Nothing, to my knowledge, that TVG has ever done has been for the benefit of the player. They have guys like Nick Hines, who is a So Cal expert, giving out pick 4 'recommendations' on tracks that are 3,000 miles away? Les Onaka, a Quarter horse expert is recommending a pick 4 at a harness track? That doesn't reek of helping the player either, yet TVG does it anyway.

If anyone can tell me one thing that TVG has done for the 'player' in the history of TVG, i'd love to know about it. (not even going to mention that they charge you to BET, i believe its 25 cents per play?)

lamboguy · 06-20-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imriledup

is TVG supposed to care about horseplayers? They're just running a business. TVG does whats good for TVG, being 'behind' the horseplayer isn't even a blip on their radar screen.

Nothing, to my knowledge, that TVG has ever done has been for the benefit of the player. They have guys like Nick Hines, who is a So Cal expert, giving out pick 4 'recommendations' on tracks that are 3,000 miles away? Les Onaka, a Quarter horse expert is recommending a pick 4 at a harness track? That doesn't reek of helping the player either, yet TVG does it anyway.

If anyone can tell me one thing that TVG has done for the 'player' in the history of TVG, i'd love to know about it. (not even going to mention that they charge you to BET, i believe its 25 cents per play?)

the best is when christina oliveres and nancy urey pick the harness races on lady luck!
for those that watch and listen to TVG you must take it for what it is, just entertainment. if you want ot watch a real handicapping show, watch nancy and mark during every single mountaineer card. they review every horse in every single race. they tell you how they feel the track is playing from their experience. that is very important to me while betting on the mountain. the picks come out with their analysis after thorough handicapping. they don't do 5 tracks, they do 1. tvg picks are all scripted program generated, while mark and nancy are all done by hand!

Cangamble · 06-20-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InsideThePylons-MW

Note: I am not a member of HANA so maybe no one will care about what I have to say.

Even though you are not a member of HANA, I quoted you on my blog today.
Why you are not a member of HANA, I have no idea, since zero participation is required outside of filling out the new members form, which probably would take a quarter of the time it took you to make your original post.

ryesteve · 06-20-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imriledup

is TVG supposed to care about horseplayers? They're just running a business. TVG does whats good for TVG

But given that their business is not-so-indirectly dependent on horseplayers, it would be smart, good business if they DID care about them.

senortout · 06-20-2009, 12:46 PM

The interesting thing about Canadian racing(Woodbine, etc) is, last time I checked, there is no taxing of the money that Canadians win at the track!

So, maybe they have rationalized, in a fair way, their heavy takeouts on (particularly) exotic wagering?

Has anyone ever considered this when chastising them?

just wondering

Cangamble · 06-20-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senortout

The interesting thing about Canadian racing(Woodbine, etc) is, last time I checked, there is no taxing of the money that Canadians win at the track!

So, maybe they have rationalized, in a fair way, their heavy takeouts on (particularly) exotic wagering?

Has anyone ever considered this when chastising them?

just wondering

That is absolutely no excuse to have high takeouts. Do you know that Woodbine only pays 1.3% of takeout on taxes?
And besides, in the USA, most can get the withheld taxes back at tax time.
Also, we have higher tax rates on everything in Canada, and that is why the government does not tax gambling winnings.

The fact the government doesn't tax gambling winnings is no excuse for a track to charge high takeouts.

Also, many tris, and pick 3's fall below the $5000 threshold anyways.

I only see one rationale behind the high takes, and that is that Woodbine relies on their customers to be ignorant of their takeouts.

takeout · 06-20-2009, 04:01 PM

Exclusives SUCK!!!

rrbauer · 06-20-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cangamble

And besides, in the USA, most can get the withheld taxes back at tax time.

This is tricky. In the USA you have to itemize deductions to get the full benefit of gambling losses, at least to the extent of winnings. So if you have other losses; or over-withholding situations (or extra quarterly payments), the withheld taxes could come back to you. However, to maximize that, you need to itemize so that you can deduct ALL gambling losses (up to the total of "winnings"). 65% of USA taxpayers DO NOT itemize and assuming that same percentage applies to horseplayers then there are lost opportunities for getting the withholdings back.

This scenario, take one step farther, worsens for folks who do not itemize and have "signers" that are not at the withholding threshold. Those signers are reported as income and since the player is not itemizing, there are no losses being offset against them. That is extra income and there is no withholding to cover it. Ergo, get out the checkbook on April 15!

These facts are part of the reason that just stopping withholding on large scores is not enough. They (the tracks) have to stop reporting to the extent that other gambling income is not reported (signers). Otherwise, horseplayers remain at a disadvantage.

BillW · 06-20-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by takeout

Exclusives SUCK!!!

Isn't this an exclusive on the video?

NoCal Boy · 06-20-2009, 08:18 PM

TVG's deal with Woodbine is not exclusive as in the past TVG exclusive deals. It is similar to the exclusives TVG has with Hollywood Park and Keeneland. It is exclusive for television not wagering or streaming video.

This is wonderful for the horseplayer. If one wants to play WO or MO then that is fine and now they have an outlet. The fields are large and playable. Takeout is poor, but merely playing a track because of its lower takeout makes no sense in the abstract. The key is to find a track that you can handicap and cash tickets. If that is at a lower takeout track, then great, but if it happens to be at a higher takeout track, then so be it. The key is ROI.

My reasoned guess is the handles will increase noticeably for both Canadian tracks now. I use Youbet and I believe it is a given that wagers on these 2 Canadian tracks went up appreciably the past few days at Youbet and so did the net revenues in dollar terms on these wagers.

TVG (and HRTV) are good for racing when handled in this manner. For this they do deserve a small extra fee. The more distribution, the better for all in the industry. I also love the harness action getting more attention.

Hajck Hillstrom · 06-21-2009, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cangamble

Why you are not a member of HANA, I have no idea

I believe InsideThePylons adheres to the Graucho Marx school of "I don't care to belong to a club that would accept people like me as members."

Could be worse... as he could "have a mind to join the club and beat you over the head with it."

Apologies, as "I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it."

menifee · 06-21-2009, 02:43 AM

My understanding is that Woodbine is throwing in a 150k to pick 6 pools on Sun. Not a guarantee, but actually putting in a 150k cash into the pool. That's dead money.

Cangamble · 06-21-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by menifee

My understanding is that Woodbine is throwing in a 150k to pick 6 pools on Sun. Not a guarantee, but actually putting in a 150k cash into the pool. That's dead money.

It is a great betting opportunity. But they are counting on the bait and switch. You handicap the pick 6 and wind up throwing money at their high take exotics as well.