Beyer on Dutrow, Wolfson, etc.

[LottaKash]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

I think you make a very good point here. Regardless of whatever cheating I or anyone else thinks, it's hard to not realize guys like Dutrow, Asmussen, Wolfson, etc are very good trainers.

Quite true, and there are numerous very nice people in prison that are still willing to steal your cash when you are not looking......A cheater is a cheater....I say do it right, or get out, and stop stealing our hard earned kash.....or go to jail and be with all the nice people there......

best,

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by LottaKash

Quite true, and there are numerous very nice people in prison that are still willing to steal your cash when you are not looking......A cheater is a cheater....I say do it right, or get out, and stop stealing our hard earned kash.....or go to jail and be with all the nice people there......

best,

Where exactly did anybody defend cheating....whether the trainer is talented or not?

[pandy]

It's very difficult to judge someone's ability when they cheat. Allen Jerkens, a great trainer who I believe has 0 positives and has trained for about 50 years, wins around 15% and has had meets where he was hot and won 25% or so. These other guys win 25 to 30% all the time. But if they didn't use drugs, could they win around 15%? Or would be it 9%? Hard to know, but not hard to know that Allen Jerkens is a great trainer.

That's why, as a turf and harness writer, I rarely praise trainers. I'm not going to heap praise on someone when I'm not sure if the person is using drugs. With Jerkens, I'm comfortable making the call. He's a great trainer.

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by Indulto

Stymie, perhaps?I guess you're not buying Mochera's statement in an interview a few months ago to the effect that drugs drove him out of the game.

I thought I'd ask both of you, rtc and sp, what you feel primarily keeps most trainers from cheating? Is it concern for the horses, ethics, lack of nerve, owners unwilling to spend money, owners unable to spend money, owners with ethics, other?

plain and simple, having access to the drugs that will really work and still pass the test is the most prized and best kept secret on the backstretch. if every trainer had the "juice" the playing field would, again, be level.

since you asked, allow me to expound a little. beating the test is the key to success today. it is however a constantly changing game. drug research, especially in foreign countries {austrailia, new zealand etc.), provides a constant influx of new, designer drugs to remedy any number of equine maladys.
chlenbuterol, THE BRONCIODIALATOR, came out of germany at first and i remember guys selling cheaper immitations but the "good" stuff always had labels printed in german.

the tests are always changed to catch up to the new drugs but they never do. harness racing was using milkshakes to retard the buildup of lactic acid in a horses system (fatigue factor) at least 5 yrs. before it started in the runners.( you probably don't want to hear this, but the harness guys are FAR BETTER horsemen than the thorobred guys. much more hands on ). Question for you : which prominant n y thoro owner won every major harness race before he switched to runners and why ?

as the tests catch up to a specific drug, a trainer must go on to a new one or, all of a sudden, become just another face in the crowd. another question : what trainer dominated grade 1's from coast to coast 20 to 30 yrs. ago to the extent he was a legend ? all of a sudden, he couldn't win a race let alone a grade 1. did he get stupid all of a sudden ? did he lose his touch ? was he no longer a "horse whisperer ?" maybe he just couldn't find a new edge or had made so much it simply was no longer worth the risk.

to answer your question, there are many reasons why all trainers dont cheat. you mentioned all or most in your question and i applaud those guys.

but allow me to emphasize, for those who aspire to the ranks of "super trainer", and intend on playing by the rules, the road will be impossible to navigate.

[proximity]

Originally Posted by pandy

It's very difficult to judge someone's ability when they cheat. Allen Jerkens, a great trainer who I believe has 0 positives and has trained for about 50 years, wins around 15% and has had meets where he was hot and won 25% or so. These other guys win 25 to 30% all the time. But if they didn't use drugs, could they win around 15%? Or would be it 9%? Hard to know, but not hard to know that Allen Jerkens is a great trainer.
.

you're right about this and of course as the supertrainers' %s would decline w/out the drugs, the %s of the legitimate trainers (like jerkens) would then rise w/out the "competition." fortunately mr jerkens has already secured his spot as a training legend. the actual top trainers of today may never be so lucky.....

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by LottaKash

Quite true, and there are numerous very nice people in prison that are still willing to steal your cash when you are not looking......A cheater is a cheater....I say do it right, or get out, and stop stealing our hard earned kash.....or go to jail and be with all the nice people there......

best,

A brief look at my posts in this thread should show how I'm not defending these guys at all. I just agreed with the opinion that regardless of whatever illegal things they may or may not be doing, most of these guys can train, and well.

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by sonnyp

plain and simple, having access to the drugs that will really work and still pass the test is the most prized and best kept secret on the backstretch. if every trainer had the "juice" the playing field would, again, be level.

since you asked, allow me to expound a little. beating the test is the key to success today. it is however a constantly changing game. drug research, especially in foreign countries {austrailia, new zealand etc.), provides a constant influx of new, designer drugs to remedy any number of equine maladys.
chlenbuterol, THE BRONCIODIALATOR, came out of germany at first and i remember guys selling cheaper immitations but the "good" stuff always had labels printed in german.

the tests are always changed to catch up to the new drugs but they never do. harness racing was using milkshakes to retard the buildup of lactic acid in a horses system (fatigue factor) at least 5 yrs. before it started in the runners.( you probably don't want to hear this, but the harness guys are FAR BETTER horsemen than the thorobred guys. much more hands on ). Question for you : which prominant n y thoro owner won every major harness race before he switched to runners and why ?

as the tests catch up to a specific drug, a trainer must go on to a new one or, all of a sudden, become just another face in the crowd. another question : what trainer dominated grade 1's from coast to coast 20 to 30 yrs. ago to the extent he was a legend ? all of a sudden, he couldn't win a race let alone a grade 1. did he get stupid all of a sudden ? did he lose his touch ? was he no longer a "horse whisperer ?" maybe he just couldn't find a new edge or had made so much it simply was no longer worth the risk.

to answer your question, there are many reasons why all trainers dont cheat. you mentioned all or most in your question and i applaud those guys.

but allow me to emphasize, for those who aspire to the ranks of "super trainer", and intend on playing by the rules, the road will be impossible to navigate.

If I understand you correctly, then restricted distribution of the "safest" and currently most effective performance enhancers for highly-profitable sale by their suppliers is responsible for their continued dominance.

One might then wonder how organized such suppliers are, how one becomes a customer, and whether one even has the option of stopping once one is accepted?

My guess as the answer to your second question is Lukas. I have no clue as to the first.

[Charlie D]

for those who aspire to the ranks of "super trainer", and intend on playing by the rules, the road will be impossible to navigate.

So aspiring trainer then maybe has to do similar to M Dickinson, use [insert drug name ] to be competitive

Sad state racing has got itself into when a trainer has to do that innit

[LottaKash]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

A brief look at my posts in this thread should show how I'm not defending these guys at all. I just agreed with the opinion that regardless of whatever illegal things they may or may not be doing, most of these guys can train, and well.

Hey Hoss, I realize that & was just goofin on ya.

But a question....Does Dutrow or any of his compatriots Smile when they Pick Your Pockets ?..........Thieves do, I resent them, and it is amazing how politcally correct we have become, when we say things that lean toward exoneration, "well, he did steal from us, but he IS is good trainer"........Baloney, and so what if they are good trainers, if they are caught then they are criminals and should be discarded from the scene.....Pickpockets go to Jail when caught, but not these guys...It is form of stealing, and it is against the law..

I am a decent handicapper, so it makes me wonder sometimes about how much more money I would have, if not for these guys......I wonder ?

best,

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

Is it just easier to point out Asmussen won trainer of the year, as if that somehow means it's okay what these guys are doing?

Not my point at all...

[BM1947]

I guess Im not as smart as all you guys are so I would like 1 ( one ) questioned answered, please. This question is reguarding all the well know trainers ( not the ham & egg guys at beu or sun or any small time track)
the question :

What exactly do they gain by "cheating" ????


remember all these trainers earn in excess of 1 million a yr
all the owners are very wealthy
if they are known "cheaters" in the racing community no one will buy or claim a horse from them


So, please tell me what they gain by cheating


thanking you in advance for all the great answers I will get to enhance my weak knowledge base

[DerbyTrail]

Originally Posted by karlskorner

So far everyone has overlooked one thing. Gilbert G. Cambell, OWNER/BREEDER of This ones for Phil. Gilbert G. Cambell is an astute horseman, he chose to put his horse in charge of Richard Dutrow. Although he has several horses in K. O'Connell's barn, he has been noted to remove some to other barns when he felt Ms. O'Connell was not capable of training same. I am not sure when the transfer was made, but note the last 3 workouts schedule by Mr. Dutrow.

Actually, the horse was sold 3 months ago to Paul Pompa. Campbell had nothing to do with the move of the horse to Dutrow. Gulfstream botched the ownership listing and silks Saturday.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by DerbyTrail

Actually, the horse was sold 3 months ago to Paul Pompa. Campbell had nothing to do with the move of the horse to Dutrow. Gulfstream botched the ownership listing and silks Saturday.

Karl often has trouble getting his facts straight.

[Zman179]

"Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."

- Jesse Ventura

[slewis]

Originally Posted by pandy

It's very difficult to judge someone's ability when they cheat. Allen Jerkens, a great trainer who I believe has 0 positives and has trained for about 50 years, wins around 15% and has had meets where he was hot and won 25% or so. These other guys win 25 to 30% all the time. But if they didn't use drugs, could they win around 15%? Or would be it 9%? Hard to know, but not hard to know that Allen Jerkens is a great trainer.

That's why, as a turf and harness writer, I rarely praise trainers. I'm not going to heap praise on someone when I'm not sure if the person is using drugs. With Jerkens, I'm comfortable making the call. He's a great trainer.

Well, your half correct.

Jerkens IS and will always be a great trainer (In my opinion the greatest).
As far as using drugs and getting positives.... your 100% incorrect.