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Old 07-15-2009, 01:14 PM   #46
DeanT
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Originally Posted by machine
If a racetrack is rewarded more for taking bets than for putting on said races any smart business man would focus on taking bets over putting on races. It's parallel to the racinos who now want to give less money to the purses from the slots (because the slots make money the races don't). Because of this upside down business venture the State gets involved to make sure tracks don't do just that (screw the horseman, race 5 days a year and pocket the money). So the argument leads to MORE state involvement to make sure things are "fair" which they obviously are not.

If you wish to argue those in charge of racetracks are idiots and wouldn't know what to do with a bottle opener if you gave them a bottle I'm with you. And again leads to the point HANA needs a platform of what a track should do w/ it's takeout (clean up the back stretch, pay for vets, insurance for jockeys etc etc), but doesn't mean that you should hop in bed with the person giving you kickbacks.

Arguing for those taking the bets getting more money at the expense of those putting on the race is foolish and probably hinders getting a seat at the table. From the outside it appears you don't have a need for tracks. They are the bad guys and they should be happy with what they get. Yeah, you'd have a hard time getting in anywhere w/ that attitude. In my opinion a platform outlining what HANA believes would be the most fair system should be written down somewhere. First, so we know that those on the board are truly "representing" us, and 2nd so we know what we're signing up for.

You have a choice in a platform, admit the system sucks and here's some things that will make it bearable for horseplayers OR admit the system sucks and put together what a good system looks like for everyone benefit.
What you are saying in theory is not happening in reality.

What, in effect (a host track controlling pricing through a larger share of the pie) has been done in two instances, Twinspires and HPI.

Twinspires, what have they done and what has this resulted in?

* Horsemen went on strike against them because of their share of wagering.

* Players get no rebates

* Effective takeout went up not down

* Tracknet has made it known that you have to bet over $1M a year for anyone to get a rebate for their signals

* A player, R Zanakis noticed that a pick 6 he hit at the Meadowlands paid less in Twinspires. It turns out that there was a deal in Oregon where the takeout on this bet could be 25% instead of 20% on track. This was exposed and TS now charges 20% not 25% on that bet.

How about HPI and their system?

* the Ellis Park 4% takeout pick 4 was offered on HPI. At a takeout of 25%.

* Players have left for offshores

* rebates were quietly instituted for players well over $1M bet per year, not less than that.

* the 10% takeout experiment in Laurel was not offered.

* The 19% takes for Churchill Downs and Keeneland for example, are charged at 27% for players.

Once again, if you are advocating the host track getting all this money, like TS and HPI, you will get skewered by players, and rightfully so. It is a non-starter and I can tell you from the 900 comments we have on sign up forms, I have never seen one which wants Tracknet and Bob Evans to have more control over racing. We do not want higher takeouts, and rebates only for large players, and HANA members agree 100% with that.

Last, and I will try once again, Chickenhead worked on this issue from the start of HANA and did due diligence and came up with this:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...&postcount=270

If you would like to discuss that, please do, either via email or on the blog. But asking for us to come up with a plan which you agree with, that our members do not agree with, simply is not something we would do. We want to stop the items listed above from happening, not promote them.

Last edited by DeanT; 07-15-2009 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:22 PM   #47
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Machine, we are horseplayers, we represent horseplayers. ADWs are the least of our concern right now because they are the only thing horseplayers have going for them if the purpose of playing horses is to try to actually make money, or at least have a reasonable chance to make money betting horses.

If it wasn't for rebaters handle would be something like two thirds what it is today. And the game would be dying faster than it is right now.
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:40 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by machine
Quote:
Originally Posted by machine
And someone else asked me about sport vs game. I'm a big believer that most people if involved as a sport first move to wanting to wager on it. Is the Super Bowl popular because people wager on it, or do people wager on it because it's so popular? So, I don't believe takeout should depend on either, there is a level that is optimal for everyone. Furthermore, If I bet blackjack at a casino, the casino doesn't give me dollar bills to bet more blackjack it gives me a free room and a meal so i will continue to bet blackjack. Asking the ADW's to give money back is only possible because they have such a sweet deal going in that they get the lion's share of revenue for a product they don't create (Though you all hate Pope, there is no other business that follows that model, not even Itunes [.10 to band, .65 to recording industry, .35 to itunes). They take advantage of a broken system and pass on that advantage to the player so that you're on their side. If more money went back to the place putting on the show (and nothing is guaranteed) maybe you'd get a better show and a lower take out. Just because the ADW's offer rebates doesn't mean that they aren't screwing you.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=581741#post581741

machine,
Are you still the blogger, “Handride,” who made the post in the above link or someone else using his login? Quite a change in demeanor from previous posts under that pseudonym.

It was on the assumption you were the horseplayer who had worked on the NTRA marketing report that I brought up the “sport vs. market” issue. My question now is, are you really trying to help HANA with your contract suggestion or to expand the influence of the NTRA horseplayer group who may already have access to such documents?
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:56 PM   #49
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Yeah that's me I write a blog and I have a mind and I learn and continue to learn. And my opinion changes, hopefully I don't have to go back to every bulletin board I've been a part of for the past 11 years and go back and put footnotes.

There is no conspiracy as to my push for a platform. I know a couple people, but not through NTRA horseplayers group.

My push for a platform, no matter what's in it, is for the reasons i've laid out in this thread. My guess is that the platform HANA would put out I wouldn't agree too, but at least you'd have a platform.

you'd know how you're being represented.
you'd know what you're being represented for.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:05 PM   #50
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As I have told you before I think you are one of the most passionate people in this sport. If there was a million of you racing would not be where it is. You have a different mission statement and that is absolutely fine.

Just as I mentioned before and it is not a criticism of your views, it is simply a statement with HANA - we are horseplayers and horseplayers sign up for us.

One of your most ballsy posts on your view, which we all remember as it spurred a lot of comments and blog posts around the TBA:

"I love to hear how the industry should focus on the gambling. At this point it's comical how wrong headed it is."

A noble discussion, gutsy, ballsy and all the rest. But for HANA, it is not something we'd have much discussion on. The people who sign up for HANA are horseplayers who gamble on horses so they dont much go for that view.

It is a similar issue with the stance of getting the host track to get the bulk of wagering - noble idea etc. But HANA members have signed up because they are tired of being treated so poorly by racetracks. Giving them more money is not something they consider an option as they simply do not trust racetracks, and I cant say I blame them.

I think you have some fantastic fan ideas and I hope you keep pushing them forward, however, because this is a fine game to watch and be a part of, whether we bet on it or not, and I think the business has not done a good enough job with that either.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:06 PM   #51
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And after rereading that post I still agree. The report for the NTRA was put on infront of marketers who have no input into the overall takeout/signal/contract matters. For that you have to go up a level to the deal makers. Why I would like to see a group put together a platform is because after dealing w/ the BC, NTRA, and TPA for the past year I realize you can get in the door and give lip service, but it's not until you hit them over the head w/ a full functioning working idea do they actually look at you seriously.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:13 PM   #52
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just thought I'd mention, not by way of support, that Amazon takes 70% of book revenue for the Kindle.

Apple uses music sales primarily to support Ipod/Iphone sales, where they have huge margins. Amazon uses the Kindle to push it's book content, where it has very large margins.

I guess the point is, pointing to any one single other kind of distributor agreement and saying the numbers are correct doesn't work all that well. The numbers need to be what they need to be for horseracing, not for some other thing.

Horsemen control the signals - and you're not going to get any of them to sign up for 10% of takeout. A necessary requirement, probably the primary requirement, is that the model has a non-zero chance of getting implemented.

The argument to gut the ADW industry as a source of revenue for tracks only makes sense if you believe that the services the ADW provides -- video, data, and rebates, aren't needed. If they are needed, you are merely shifting who is going to provide them. Since the ADW already provides them -- why? In light of the decades of evidence, and copious and continuous statements highlighting that track operators understand their customers much less than ADW operators -- why would that be a positive for racing?

If the tracks believe they can operate as a bet taker more efficiently -- by all means, become a bet taker as well. Just don't attempt to monopolize your signal, and cripple every other bet taker. That is bad for the entire industry.

Last edited by chickenhead; 07-15-2009 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:16 PM   #53
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This is great, please continue to read my blog and make ad hominem attacks when the crux of this entire thread is NOT me, a person who has admitted 2 times now that they probably wouldn't be in HANA if there was a platform. The point of this post is that while I may feel one way (making the #1 goal of marketing and advertising gamblers is foolish, never said it couldn't be #2-#10) I realize that what you are doing could have an impact in this game if only you took yourselves a little more seriously. People who are in places that affect change are looking for ideas, but mostly fans have met them with lip service, or reaffirming ideas they already wanted to do or worse the people looking for change are hearing what they want to hear. When what truly spurs change is people with specific goals and rationale putting it in the face of those who can affect that change.

Without a platform you can't measure success.
Without a platform you can't take credit for helping create change.
Without a platform your membership will not know where to begin.

I admit I wouldn't be a good member of HANA, but I realize opportunity and hope when I see it. So, continue w/ your irons in the fire and being too busy to specifically address what appears to be much of your membership wanting clear goals and missions.

All this does is reaffirm why I don't go on Bulletin boards that much, the messenger is readily attacked and the message is lost.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:21 PM   #54
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This is great, please continue to read my blog and make ad hominem attacks when the crux of this entire thread is NOT me, a person who has admitted 2 times now that they probably wouldn't be in HANA if there was a platform.
I don't see anyone attacking you. Disagreeing, absolutely, but not attacking. other than the HANA bashing, I actually find this thread to be very interesting.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:26 PM   #55
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I actually agree very much with your core point of having a model to point to, obviously.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:29 PM   #56
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should have said ad hominem arguments
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:30 PM   #57
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All this does is reaffirm why I don't go on Bulletin boards that much, the messenger is readily attacked and the message is lost.
I was speaking to your point of view that the host tracks should get the bulk of the handles and was offering my input that this is not a good thing for HANA to be involved with because members would not agree with it, and it is not good for racing handles. I see Chick's last post was along those lines as well. They were about your ideas, not your personality.

For your original point, I spoke about that in the first couple posts where I agreed. We are working doing due diligence to come up with several plans right now to place in front of the industry with achievable goals. It takes quite a bit of time to do correctly. They take time, and with a membership who sometimes wants to see things done yesterday, it is a tough balancing act to come up with change ideas to grow membership, and making sure we find the best way to get that change done so we can show progress and move forward as an organization.

I thanked you for your comments before, and I thank you again for them.
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #58
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I think people putting forward what they think a model should look like is a good thing, and of course horseplayers are going to disagree about what it should look like. This thread seems like a good place to talk about this stuff. I'd love to hear ITP talk about what he thinks a model would look like. I'd love to hear Ian Meyers talk about what a model should look like. I'd love to hear what Ron Ellis thinks a model should look like.

I know we have plenty of horsemen, track folks, and ADW folks that read this board, I'd like to hear them talk about what a model should look like.
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Old 07-15-2009, 04:11 PM   #59
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I think people putting forward what they think a model should look like is a good thing, and of course horseplayers are going to disagree about what it should look like. This thread seems like a good place to talk about this stuff. I'd love to hear ITP talk about what he thinks a model would look like. I'd love to hear Ian Meyers talk about what a model should look like. I'd love to hear what Ron Ellis thinks a model should look like.

I know we have plenty of horsemen, track folks, and ADW folks that read this board, I'd like to hear them talk about what a model should look like.
I think a model should like Carla Bruni


I figure we needed some levity.
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Old 07-15-2009, 05:14 PM   #60
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Impossible!

Satish Sanan and others are carrying Pope around on their shoulders and calling him a hero in the Paulick thread.

This is just amazing.

We are doomed!
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