You know who absolutely crushes it on mandatory payout days?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Someone claiming I am wrong is not enough. I want actual evidence that this cannot happen.

Isn't the burden on the accuser to provide evidence that this exists?

It shouldn't be too hard. People in racing like to talk. Do you really think someone in the industry who provides this type of "dark info" to the CAWs or knows of its existence wouldn't talk about it if asked?

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Like I said, I was doing something like this 15 years ago.

Was I "in the system?"

No, I wasn't...I wasn't doing very well either.

But I was using a computer to analyze and place bets automatically.

And they are much smarter than I am...do they even need this phantom "extra info?"

I doubt it...even if it exists.

If there is a first timer in leg 4 of a mandatory payout, wouldn't you like to know at 3 mins to post is he is being bet like a 3/5 shot, a 1-1 shot or an 8/5 shot. Some other 1st timer might be 6-1 morning line bet like a 28-1 shot. This type of information is invaluable in structuring tickets. Especially when you are an expert in structuring tickets. I am not talking about telling the computer to bet so and so at 6-1 or better at 10 seconds to post. I am talking about having all the information from all the pools and the tools to analyze it in real time. Whether this exists or not, I do not know, but my guess is that is does. The only thing that would convince me otherwise is some kind of proof that it does not. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. Me included.

When teams are investing millions before making their first bet and given access to the system it is not a big stretch to believe what I believe. Prove me wrong. The fact that you were instructing the computer to make bets for you 15 years ago doesn't do that.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

When teams are investing millions before making their first bet and given access to the system it is not a big stretch to believe what I believe.

You still haven't defined what "access to the system" means...

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Like I said, I was doing something like this 15 years ago.

Was I "in the system?"

No, I wasn't...I wasn't doing very well either.

But I was using a computer to analyze and place bets automatically.

And they are much smarter than I am...do they even need this phantom "extra info?"

I doubt it...even if it exists.

Two points here.

First, the tote system velocity was radically different 15 years ago. Second, your wagering decisions were not based on the current odds down to a ten second interval in the tote pools.

There is a reason that Wall Street went from trading in 1/8ths to decimalization between 1985 and 2000. Greater transparency in the bid/ask markets for equities and better pricing for the consumer. The pricing transparency in tote pools is missing for the average player which creates the uneven playing field.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by AndyC

No.

the stronach tracks were giving the potential payoffs for trifecta's on their Xpressbet platform a few years ago. i haven't seen them lately though. the CAW do have feeds, they probably are the reason why we don't see them any longer from Xpressbet.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Two points here.

First, the tote system velocity was radically different 15 years ago. Second, your wagering decisions were not based on the current odds down to a ten second interval in the tote pools.

There is a reason that Wall Street went from trading in 1/8ths to decimalization between 1985 and 2000. Greater transparency in the bid/ask markets for equities and better pricing for the consumer. The pricing transparency in tote pools is missing for the average player which creates the uneven playing field.

So you're saying that for one thing, the CAW teams are getting updated on odds and pool totals faster than everyone else?

Is that what you're claiming?

What does the industry say its reporting time is these days? The pools can only be as accurate as the slowest provider. Not every simulcast outlet transmits data at the same rate/pace. In fact, I bet it still varies wildly, even among the venues that handle a ton.

A lot of stuff is being thrown around in this thread based on little fact.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You still haven't defined what "access to the system" means...

Not to stand-in for Poindexter, but I would argue that "access" here implies that CAW players are seeing the raw data inside the "database" of all wagers. I would instead argue that CAW players can see data as provided via the API (application programming interface) made available. Honestly, I would like access to that API as an average player.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Isn't the burden on the accuser to provide evidence that this exists?

It shouldn't be too hard. People in racing like to talk. Do you really think someone in the industry who provides this type of "dark info" to the CAWs or knows of its existence wouldn't talk about it if asked?

Who says anything about dark information. If I am in racing computer and I am a really strong programmer, why can't I determine all the information I want about every combination that has been bet to that moment in time. What is keeping me from getting that information. If someone can convince me I am wrong (there are a lot of programmers on this board), then convince me. Otherwise I will believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Who in racing really cares. All they care about is that their pathetic little sport survives another year so they have a job and what other form of gambling they can piggyback off of so there sport continues to survive.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

If I am in racing computer and I am a really strong programmer, why can't I determine all the information I want about every combination that has been bet to that moment in time.

What is stopping you? Other than not being a strong programmer?

I must be missing something obvious here.

Say you were the best programmer in the world. What are you lacking?

What do you think they have, that you don't have.

Be specific.

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, has anyone ever inquired to all these ADWs in existence if they have an API you can use?

AmWager seems pretty friendly to stuff like this...and they claim data and pool info updates 60x faster then the competition.

https://www.amwager.com/features/

No ADW is offering an API to the public? Has anyone ever inquired?

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

So you're saying that for one thing, the CAW teams are getting updated on odds and pool totals faster than everyone else?

The refresh rate (typically 60 seconds) is not sufficient for CAW players to adequately assess positions. As a result, CAW playeys are getting update rates more frequently.

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Is that what you're claiming?

I know that this is the case. What I do not know is the refresh rate on the real time feed as I have not been able to gain access to one.

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What does the industry say its reporting time is these days?

Some tracks that have not employed the two minute barrier as we see at NYRA have gone to 10-15 second odds pool refresh rates. Very early in my career, I worked at General Instrument when they owned AmTote and I can tell you for sure that such code (even 40 years back) was highly guarded.

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

The pools can only be as accurate as the slowest provider.

Interesting point in that the largest CAW players could argue that slower pool inputs help disguise their wagers.

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Not every simulcast outlet transmits data at the same rate/pace. In fact, I bet it still varies wildly, even among the venues that handle a ton.

As a CAW player, I would be demanding a level playing field on the transmission rates. This is similar to Reuters or Bloomberg offering trading platforms to Wall Street. How can you do business when there is a lag?

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

A lot of stuff is being thrown around in this thread based on little fact.

I am providing exactly what I know to be the case as of this moment. In fact, I have been speaking with trusted individuals on this board to get access to these feeds - to no avail as yet. If I seem to be throwing things around, I apologize as that is not my intent.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What is stopping you? Other than not being a strong programmer?

I must be missing something obvious here.

Say you were the best programmer in the world. What are you lacking?

What do you think they have, that you don't have.

Be specific.

I pretty much answered already. In the computer system are millions of bets made by everyone that has bet up to that point in time. So why can't expert A write a program to extract that information, and provide to himself that in this pick 4 pool the #1 in race 8 is being bet like a 4/5 shot, while in the pick 6 pool he is being bet like a 3/5 shot....That is all I am saying. Either they are blocked somehow (and my understanding is that racing has some pretty dated systems) or the information is accessible. If the information is accessible (it is obviously accessible to the racing industry) then expert A can pull the information into his system and make whatever analysis of the data he wants to in his own system.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

What is stopping you? Other than not being a strong programmer?

I must be missing something obvious here.

Say you were the best programmer in the world. What are you lacking?

What do you think they have, that you don't have.

Be specific.

I can definitively answer this. I want to be able to refresh the pricing (wagers) in the double and exacta pools at the smallest interval possible and use that information to appropriately assess the win pools where CAW money is absent.

If you know where you can get a real-time feed of wagering data from any track, let me know. I am telling you that the average player cannot access that information - and just to be clear, I would love to be proven wrong on this one.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

As a CAW player, I would be demanding a level playing field on the transmission rates. This is similar to Reuters or Bloomberg offering trading platforms to Wall Street. How can you do business when there is a lag?

I was talking about all these different simulcast outlets sending their pool info to the host track at wildly different rates, thus making the pool totals suspect at any given time...

How do the CAWs get around this? They can't force the slower venues to update their totals at a faster rate...even IF they are getting faster updates then you or I.

The information is only as accurate as the slowest updater...as I said.

NYRA could be updating the totals they have taken on a Santa Anita race every 10-15 seconds, but another venue could take 30-60 seconds...and that venue could have a big bet that doesn't show for 45 seconds even though NYRA has updated their totals...see what I'm getting at?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

I can definitively answer this. I want to be able to refresh the pricing (wagers) in the double and exacta pools at the smallest interval possible and use that information to appropriately assess the win pools where CAW money is absent.

If you know where you can get a real-time feed of wagering data from any track, let me know. I am telling you that the average player cannot access that information - and just to be clear, I would love to be proven wrong on this one.

And I've just been writing multiple times that REAL TIME isn't REAL TIME even if it is REAL TIME...LOL

Is there even a track or simulcast outlet in existence that is sending its info out in REAL TIME?

If there isn't, then real time doesn't really exist, does it?