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Old 06-16-2023, 10:35 PM   #1
v j stauffer
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RIGHT, WRONG, COOLER, DUMB ASS

Playing last week in a WSOP $1500 NLH Freeze Out Tournament.

10th level blinds were 1000 - 2000 with 2000 big blind ante.

Three people in hand pre-flop.

Table definitely wasn't tight. Lot's of action and chips changing hands.

In order of action the three chip stacks were 75k for player 1st to act.

37k for the 2nd player.

I was the third to act. My stack was $77k

Player 1 min raises to 4000

Player 2 shoves all in with his 37k

I have JJ. I shove my 77k. Before I tell you what happened I'll say my intent was to isolate the 37k shove. I thought is range was plenty wide enough that JJ was IMO very likely to be good.

Here's where the entire plan went into the crapper.

The woman who min raised to 4000, calls my shove.

Not something I was even considering. I thought if she didn't have KK or AA she would fold. Even thought she might fold QQ since she'd be in for her tournament life against me.

One other thing I'll say regarding my play. Was IF I lost the flip vs the 37k shover I'd still have 15 Big Blinds.

Well I got a VERY sinking feeling when she snapped called for her stack with QQ.

I would have folded QQ vs two all in opponents but to her credit or by dumb luck she called.

The flop came 8 A 6 turn 3 river 4.

37k doubles up. She wins the rest of my chips and I hit the rail.

Very interested in what all of you have to say.

RIGHT, WRONG, COOLER, DUMB ASS?

THX
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Old 06-17-2023, 12:48 AM   #2
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What were the seating positions of the two players acting ahead of you? Were there other players except the blinds who were waiting to act after you pre-flop?
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Old 06-17-2023, 02:30 AM   #3
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Just out of curiosity...what hand was the 37k shove holding?
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Old 06-17-2023, 09:54 AM   #4
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Can I go with DUMB ASS? Just poking the bear.

The way the hand played, as soon as she called, you knew you were cooled.

The lady was the original raiser, and still was to act behind you. A call of the 37k at least gives you a delay, and a chance of folding.

You call, she shoves, you might get to a fold here. 4 hands, 3 of them beat you AA KK QQ and AK might do this. You might not like it, but, you are still playing.

You call, she calls. With the way the flop came, this might check all the way. Neither of you would have liked to see the A.


I hate JJ......
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Old 06-17-2023, 11:55 AM   #5
v j stauffer
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What were the seating positions of the two players acting ahead of you? Were there other players except the blinds who were waiting to act after you pre-flop?
The 4000 min raise was one before the button. Button folded. The 37k shove was the small blind. I was the big blind.
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Old 06-17-2023, 11:56 AM   #6
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Just out of curiosity...what hand was the 37k shove holding?
The 37k guy shoved with A K off.
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Old 06-17-2023, 12:00 PM   #7
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Can I go with DUMB ASS? Just poking the bear.

The way the hand played, as soon as she called, you knew you were cooled.

The lady was the original raiser, and still was to act behind you. A call of the 37k at least gives you a delay, and a chance of folding.

You call, she shoves, you might get to a fold here. 4 hands, 3 of them beat you AA KK QQ and AK might do this. You might not like it, but, you are still playing.

You call, she calls. With the way the flop came, this might check all the way. Neither of you would have liked to see the A.


I hate JJ......
In retrospect I'm convinced I should have flatted the 37k shove.

I think you're right that she would not have bet on any of the streets with QQ.

Flatting probably keeps me at the table with 12-13 bigs.

Thanks for your input.
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Old 06-17-2023, 01:20 PM   #8
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I can't call your play a dumb-ass move. In fact, I might have done the exact same thing in your shoes. It was hard to put the lady on a premium hand when she raised the minimum from the cutoff seat. Your all-in move in order to isolate the 37k shove was reasonable to me, since you would have been left with about 20 big blinds even if you were beat in the hand.

Your only mistake that I could see was your assumption that the 37k shove could be put on a "plenty wide range". With 18.5 big blinds, a good player doesn't consider himself to be in panic mode at that stage of the tournament, and would only move all in with a very premium hand in that situation, IMO. Why play a lesser hand for all your chips when you are inheriting the button on the very next hand?
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Old 06-17-2023, 03:50 PM   #9
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I can't call your play a dumb-ass move. In fact, I might have done the exact same thing in your shoes. It was hard to put the lady on a premium hand when she raised the minimum from the cutoff seat. Your all-in move in order to isolate the 37k shove was reasonable to me, since you would have been left with about 20 big blinds even if you were beat in the hand.

Your only mistake that I could see was your assumption that the 37k shove could be put on a "plenty wide range". With 18.5 big blinds, a good player doesn't consider himself to be in panic mode at that stage of the tournament, and would only move all in with a very premium hand in that situation, IMO. Why play a lesser hand for all your chips when you are inheriting the button on the very next hand?
Truth be told I thought he had exactly what he did. A K off. You're right about him being a solid player. Therefore no need to shove with a wide range.

Sometimes best laid plans just don't work out. I was shocked to see her QQ. But that's what she had. In her situation I would have actually thought about folding QQ. She didn't and out I went.

Appreciate your input.

Next WSOP tourney for me is the $1000 Super Seniors NLH which starts on Tuesday the 27th.

Let's GO!
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Old 06-17-2023, 04:06 PM   #10
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Truth be told I thought he had exactly what he did. A K off. You're right about him being a solid player. Therefore no need to shove with a wide range.

Sometimes best laid plans just don't work out. I was shocked to see her QQ. But that's what she had. In her situation I would have actually thought about folding QQ. She didn't and out I went.

Appreciate your input.

Next WSOP tourney for me is the $1000 Super Seniors NLH which starts on Tuesday the 27th.

Let's GO!
I would like to know what impression the lady with the pocket queens gave you, as far as her playing ability was concerned. If I was her, and the action was folded down to me in the cutoff seat...I would never make just a minimum raise at that point. My objective would be 3-fold: To secure the button, apply pressure on the blinds...and avoid playing a multi-way pot. My queens aren't looking for "company"...they need isolation. And a minimum raise there might not accomplish ANY of my three pre-flop objectives.

Her minimum raise in that situation seemed like a timid move...but she proved that she was anything but timid when she called off 35+ big blinds after the two all-in shoves followed her minimum raise. Could it be that she noticed something that made her think that by feigning weakness she could induce a reraise from one of the players acting behind her...so she could then move over the top? You did say that it was an "action table"...
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Old 06-17-2023, 04:28 PM   #11
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Next WSOP tourney for me is the $1000 Super Seniors NLH which starts on Tuesday the 27th.

Let's GO!
Best of luck going forward...in all your endeavors.
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Old 06-18-2023, 06:46 AM   #12
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I would like to know what impression the lady with the pocket queens gave you, as far as her playing ability was concerned. If I was her, and the action was folded down to me in the cutoff seat...I would never make just a minimum raise at that point. My objective would be 3-fold: To secure the button, apply pressure on the blinds...and avoid playing a multi-way pot. My queens aren't looking for "company"...they need isolation. And a minimum raise there might not accomplish ANY of my three pre-flop objectives.

Her minimum raise in that situation seemed like a timid move...but she proved that she was anything but timid when she called off 35+ big blinds after the two all-in shoves followed her minimum raise. Could it be that she noticed something that made her think that by feigning weakness she could induce a reraise from one of the players acting behind her...so she could then move over the top? You did say that it was an "action table"...
when she led with a min raise, she might have been hoping for a re-raise ....
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Old 06-18-2023, 10:44 AM   #13
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Worst hand ever for me. I am the big blind, button min raises, small blind calls, I call With Q h 10 h. Flop comes Q s Q c 10 c. Button raises, small blind calls, I re-raise. Button shoves, small blind folds. The Button shoved with K c 3 c. I call, the turn is the 9 c and the river is J c.
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Old 06-18-2023, 11:57 AM   #14
v j stauffer
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I would like to know what impression the lady with the pocket queens gave you, as far as her playing ability was concerned. If I was her, and the action was folded down to me in the cutoff seat...I would never make just a minimum raise at that point. My objective would be 3-fold: To secure the button, apply pressure on the blinds...and avoid playing a multi-way pot. My queens aren't looking for "company"...they need isolation. And a minimum raise there might not accomplish ANY of my three pre-flop objectives.

Her minimum raise in that situation seemed like a timid move...but she proved that she was anything but timid when she called off 35+ big blinds after the two all-in shoves followed her minimum raise. Could it be that she noticed something that made her think that by feigning weakness she could induce a reraise from one of the players acting behind her...so she could then move over the top? You did say that it was an "action table"...
I was watching her closely. She came to the table relatively late. My read was she was totally following a quite conservative book.

I think the min raise to 4000 was intended to induce multiple callers.

Which I agree with you is the exact opposite thing you want with QQ.

I would have for sure folded her hand. But she seemed like well I have the 3rd best hand in poker, how bad can that be?

She didn't strike me as a player capable of making a deep run. That said she got what was left of my chips so good for her.
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Old 06-18-2023, 12:14 PM   #15
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RIGHT, WRONG, COOLER, DUMB ASS ?

I am guessing you felt you had more than 65% equity with that bet (although larger stacks still to act). You have to do things like that to WIN
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