Religion II

[hcap]

Btw, I strongly recommend....

A Newly Deciphered Babylonian Tablet Details Blueprints for "Noah's Ark"
https://newrepublic.com/article/1162...-ark-pre-bible

And if get Netfix....

NOVA: Secrets of Noah's Ark
https://www.netflix.com/title/80084780

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Ok, you're off ignore for know and for this thread.

The real question is what is the source of this confusion?

I take a much more simplified approach than the convoluted hell and damnation, you favor. Leaving god out of the equation for now, as god is mostly unknowable and hidden.

Except of course as a possible state of being we may get to know.

We tend to replace the divine with "false idols". Mostly limited abstractions and conjectures of what god is. Confusing our ballyhooed "maps" of the divine for the actual barely perceived "territory" of the divine

The Tower is primarily an artificial attempt to understand the divine by building intellectual theories and structures in place of experiencing the divine more directly. And this confusion leads to division in humanity's spirituality. We no longer speak the same spiritual language because we have lost track of the root meanings of somewhat common words. Blind men arguing over colors.

Protestant against Catholic, Christian against Jew. Abrahamic traditions against Eastern/Asian traditions.

Ad infinitum.

Do you want a real answer to your "real question"? I can give you a biblical answer, but you won't like it.

But you are right for once -- finally! Idolatry, as defined by scripture: The people of this world, the citizens of this world (Babylon) chasing after their first love. That first love can be anyone or anything -- but to the worldly, it's never God. It could be some leader of a religion, some prophet, even some religious ideal like in Zen Buddhism. Or it could be something more materialistic -- fame, fortune, power, success, recognition. Or maybe even something some might consider be more noble pursuits such as being a good family person, a doer of good in a community, a rescuer of lower creatures than ourselves. Or maybe one's idol is something base such as immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire or greed -- all of which amount to idolatry (Col 3:5). In short, idolatry is someone or something that a person puts before God in his or her life. Obviously, then, the world truly does manifest the spirit of Babylon; for this ancient empire was filled with idols and idolatrous worship.

Is it any wonder, then, that the world is in such a confused state?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you want a real answer to your "real question"? I can give you a biblical answer, but you won't like it.

But you are right for once -- finally! Idolatry, as defined by scripture: The people of this world, the citizens of this world (Babylon) chasing after their first love. That first love can be anyone or anything -- but to the worldly, it's never God. It could be some leader of a religion, some prophet, even some religious ideal like in Zen Buddhism. Or it could be something more materialistic -- fame, fortune, power, success, recognition. Or maybe even something some might consider be more noble pursuits such as being a good family person, a doer of good in a community, a rescuer of lower creatures than ourselves. Or maybe one's idol is something base such as immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire or greed -- all of which amount to idolatry (Col 3:5). In short, idolatry is someone or something that a person puts before God in his or her life. Obviously, then, the world truly does manifest the spirit of Babylon; for this ancient empire was filled with idols and idolatrous worship.

Is it any wonder, then, that the world is in such a confused state?

You are correct. No biblical explanation unless it include an analysis of one's mind in a spiritual understanding. Other than your usual "unless we accept my version of god, we are all doomed".

You are glossing over and missing the more subtle idolatry of replacing the map for the territory. A major concept that is apparently lost on you.

Btw, "some religious ideal like in Zen Buddhism", is not zen.

Do you understand.....

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."?

...how the Buddha may also be a false idol ?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are correct. No biblical explanation unless it include an analysis of one's mind in a spiritual understanding. Other than your usual "unless we accept my version of god, we are all doomed".

You are glossing over and missing the more subtle idolatry of replacing the map for the territory. A major concept that is apparently lost on you.

Btw, "some religious ideal like in Zen Buddhism", is not zen.

Do you understand.....

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."?

...how the Buddha may also be a false idol ?

Oh...so my biblical explanation must include mind and spiritual understanding? Well...what happens if the explanation precludes the possibility of the natural human mind from having any spiritual understanding? Then what?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...so my biblical explanation must include mind and spiritual understanding? Well...what happens if the explanation precludes the possibility of the natural human mind rom having any spiritual understanding? Then what?

The ordinary mind is asleep, but the spiritual mind must be included for any meaningful explanation, and can not be omitted. The problem is we are fast asleep and don't realize the spiritual mind/realm is what the real non-distorted meanings of scripture are meant for. Just getting a glimpse for a moment stirs the sleeper awake some. Primes the pump of spirituality.

Pearls before swine is a waste, but occasionally the pig is less slothful and turns away from the mud, if his attention is shifted to things more awe-inspiring, other than mud and slop.

Remember ? Eyes to see, ears to hear, more often actually functioning, is a lofty goal. More direct than theory.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

The ordinary mind is asleep, but the spiritual mind must be included for any meaningful explanation, and can not be omitted. The problem is we are fast asleep and don't realize the spiritual mind/realm is what the real non-distorted meanings of scripture are meant for. Just getting a glimpse for a moment stirs the sleeper awake some. Primes the pump of spirituality.

Pearls before swine is a waste, but occasionally the pig is less slothful and turns away from the mud, if his attention is shifted to things more awe-inspiring, other than mud and slop.

Remember ? Eyes to see, ears to hear, more often actually functioning, is a lofty goal. More direct than theory.

But if the natural mind cannot break out of its prison of human nature, how can one see anything truly spiritual? You're assuming that the mind operates like a toggle switch that can switch between natural, earthly, worldly things and spiritual truth at will. Before one can have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear" spiritual truth, something or someone needs to break into the prison of human nature to free the heart and mind that are locked up therein. Don't you recall Jesus' words to Nicodemus?

John 3:3-13
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and you do not receive our witness. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
NASB

The answer to the rhetorical question at the end is that Nicodemus would not be able to believe. According to Jesus' analogy between natural birth and spiritual birth, he needs something really radical done to him. Something needs to be added to his human nature. And it has to be very powerful, capable of transforming human nature. It must be so powerful that it can break the person out of the prison to his nature and free him so that he can partake of the divine nature.

John 8:32,36
32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " 36 "If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
NASB

Notice who it is that sets a person free. No self-help instructions here!

And,

Rom 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
NASB

When freed, we can freely partake of the divine nature! We will be liberated from the law of sin and death -- the sleep of spiritual DEATH. In this state, who can have "eyes to see" and "hears to hear"?

2 Peter 1:4
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
NASB

[thaskalos]

May I make a humble suggestion?

https://www.amazon.com/Conscience-Se...ence+ouspensky

A great read for the spiritually-minded.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But if the natural mind cannot break out of its prison of human nature, how can one see anything truly spiritual?

I never said it was easy. But there are ways to wake at least momentarily. We should really be thankful when they occur.
It is not all black or all white. All around us are influences left over from those that have broken out before us. They leave messages and throw us ropes. Art, literature, music, architecture sometimes carry "embedded" strands or threads from those before us

You're assuming that the mind operates like a toggle switch that can switch between natural, earthly, worldly things and spiritual truth at will. Before one can have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear" spiritual truth, something or someone needs to break into the prison of human nature to free the heart and mind that are locked up therein.

You maintain God must do all the work. I don't. Neither do others. Nor does Michelangelo. Notice Adam is lazy and does not pull his weight. Maybe god really does help those who help themselves. At least in a smart and educated ways....


Michelangelo's painting of "The Creation of Adam", on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I never said it was easy. But there are ways to wake at least momentarily. We should really be thankful when they occur.
It is not all black or all white. All around us are influences left over from those that have broken out before us. They leave messages and throw us ropes. Art, literature, music, architecture sometimes carry "embedded" strands or threads from those before us
You maintain God must do all the work. I don't. Neither do others. Nor does Michelangelo. Notice Adam is lazy and does not pull his weight. Maybe god really does help those who help themselves. At least in a smart and educated ways....


Michelangelo's painting of "The Creation of Adam", on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel

Or maybe God helps only those who come to the place in their life where they realize they cannot help themselves.

The new birth analogy that Jesus used with Nicodemus in John 3 clearly suggests that God does all the heavy lifting. Did you give God a helping hand with your physical birth? Or did you plan your mother's pregnancy? Just what did you contribute to your grand entrance into the world?

[Hank]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

May I make a humble suggestion?

https://www.amazon.com/Conscience-Se...ence+ouspensky

A great read for the spiritually-minded.

Thanks.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Or maybe God helps only those who come to the place in their life where they realize they cannot help themselves.

The new birth analogy that Jesus used with Nicodemus in John 3 clearly suggests that God does all the heavy lifting. Did you give God a helping hand with your physical birth? Or did you plan your mother's pregnancy? Just what did you contribute to your grand entrance into the world?

Your ability to "miss" the point is uncanny. What do you think Jesus's 40 day fast and struggle was all about?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

As Jesus also said through Paul, "by the transgression of the one, the many died."

Are you sure it wasn't Pablo Escobar who said this...after the airplane bombing that killed 110 innocent people?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Or maybe God helps only those who come to the place in their life where they realize they cannot help themselves.

The new birth analogy that Jesus used with Nicodemus in John 3 clearly suggests that God does all the heavy lifting. Did you give God a helping hand with your physical birth? Or did you plan your mother's pregnancy? Just what did you contribute to your grand entrance into the world?

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Clearly Jesus is NOT speaking of crawling back into your mother's womb. God may do the heavy lifting, botyh in the physical birth and spiritual "re-birtth", but as Michelangelo painted, Man is not helping much in the re-birth.

"Water" symbolizes a deeper meaning of truth.
"Flesh" is the literal level.

Metanoia.=Being "Born again".

in early Christianity, the term "Metanoia"...was used consistently in the literature of that time to express a fundamental change in thinking that leads to a fundamental change in behavior and/or way of living"

Maurice Nicoll From "The Mark"
Transformation of Consciousness and Being

http://www.gurdjieffwork.com/site/in...=102390&DL=243

Many parables are used in the Gospels. As they stand, taken in the literal meaning of the words, they refer apparently to vineyards, to householders, to stewards, to spendthrift sons, to oil, to water, to wine, to seeds, to sowers, to soil, and many other things. This is their literal level of meaning. The language of parables is difficult to understand just as is, in general, the language of all sacred writings. Taken on the level of literal understanding, both the Old and New Testaments are full not only of contradictions but of cruel and repulsive meaning."

Here lies one of the deepest ideas in the psychological teachings of the Gospels. A radical, permanent transformation is taught as being possible and 'metanoia' is the technical description of it. But a man cannot reach a permanent higher level of himself unless there is built up in him a connection of ideas that can gradually lift him beyond his present level. The idea of the self-evolution of man, the idea of metanoia or 'transformation of mind', and the idea of the Kingdom of Heaven are all connected and related ideas. Christ's teaching is about a possible individual evolution in a man. Everyone on this planet is capable of a certain inner growth and individual development, and this is his true significance and his deepest meaning and begins with metanoia.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Hank

Your ability to "miss" the point is uncanny. What do you think Jesus's 40 day fast and struggle was all about?

And Jesus (Last Adam) relied on strength of the Holy Spirit to pass the test that the First Adam failed.

Moreover, Jesus did not need to be born again, since he is The Life. He did not enter this world [spiritually] stillborn, as all of us do.

I would suggest you pluck out the "point" from your own eye before telling me I have missed something.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Clearly Jesus is NOT speaking of crawling back into your mother's womb. God may do the heavy lifting, botyh in the physical birth and spiritual "re-birtth", but as Michelangelo painted, Man is not helping much in the re-birth.

"Water" symbolizes a deeper meaning of truth.
"Flesh" is the literal level.

Metanoia.=Being "Born again".


Maurice Nicoll From "The Mark"
Transformation of Consciousness and Being

http://www.gurdjieffwork.com/site/in...=102390&DL=243

Many parables are used in the Gospels. As they stand, taken in the literal meaning of the words, they refer apparently to vineyards, to householders, to stewards, to spendthrift sons, to oil, to water, to wine, to seeds, to sowers, to soil, and many other things. This is their literal level of meaning. The language of parables is difficult to understand just as is, in general, the language of all sacred writings. Taken on the level of literal understanding, both the Old and New Testaments are full not only of contradictions but of cruel and repulsive meaning."

Here lies one of the deepest ideas in the psychological teachings of the Gospels. A radical, permanent transformation is taught as being possible and 'metanoia' is the technical description of it. But a man cannot reach a permanent higher level of himself unless there is built up in him a connection of ideas that can gradually lift him beyond his present level. The idea of the self-evolution of man, the idea of metanoia or 'transformation of mind', and the idea of the Kingdom of Heaven are all connected and related ideas. Christ's teaching is about a possible individual evolution in a man. Everyone on this planet is capable of a certain inner growth and individual development, and this is his true significance and his deepest meaning and begins with metanoia.

Dead men are capable of nothing. To be born again is to be raised from one's spiritual tomb. It's an infusion of life inside a spiritually dead soul. Once the soul is quickened, a person can then repent of his or her sins and turn to God in faith.

The analogy Jesus used between physical and spiritual birth was so dead on the mark, that Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be "born of water and the Spirit] -- just as it takes two entities to make physical child." Your explanation for the term "water" is very close to the truth -- but more specifically it is the truth of God's Word.

Eph 5:26
26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
NASB

Also, "water" is used to express the work of the Holy Spirit -- in his "washing of regeneration" (Tit 3:5).

This washing or cleansing of a soul by the Spirit and by the Word of God is how all God's people who were formerly spiritually unclean are made spiritually clean. It's God's answer or solution to undo man's natural born uncleanness.

Job 15:14
4 "What is man, that he should be pure,
Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
NASB

And,

Job 25:4
"How then can a man be just with God?
Or how can he be clean who is born of woman?
NASB

And,

Job 14:4
4 "Who can make the clean out of the unclean?
No one!
NASB

No one but God, that is! This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that he cannot see the kingdom heaven until he is made clean, i.e. born again. Nicodemus would not be able to understand spiritual truth about the kingdom until God made him whole.

Biblical Christianity is not another self-help, do-it-yourself religion of the world. To be born again (raised from our spiritual tombs) is nothing short of a miracle of God.