Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Off Topic > Off Topic - Poker


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average.
Old 01-08-2018, 10:07 PM   #241
horses4courses
Registered User
 
horses4courses's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
SRU,

I know you aren't posting anymore here, at least in that name, but this post hit the nail on the head. If Ivey had lost, they never would've returned the money.
If Ivey could prove that the casino cheated him out of that money,
the house would have no option but to return his stake money.
Gamblers seldom see two sides to this story.

A sloppy dealer exposing a hole card is a different situation.
However, with regard to the gambler's motivation to enter the casino in the
first place, there may be parallels. A person who seeks out weak dealers
to supplement his/her income, and only plays when they can gain that edge,
shouldn't expect to be allowed to remain on a casino blackjack table very long.

Likewise, only entering a high stakes gambling establishment when you have
inside knowledge of a flaw in the manufacture of the playing cards, doesn't give
you the right to turn that casino into your personal ATM machine.

Case closed.
__________________
You're going to lose.
You know that, right?

Last edited by horses4courses; 01-08-2018 at 10:09 PM.
horses4courses is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-08-2018, 11:51 PM   #242
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by horses4courses View Post
If Ivey could prove that the casino cheated him out of that money,
the house would have no option but to return his stake money.
Gamblers seldom see two sides to this story.

A sloppy dealer exposing a hole card is a different situation.
However, with regard to the gambler's motivation to enter the casino in the
first place, there may be parallels. A person who seeks out weak dealers
to supplement his/her income, and only plays when they can gain that edge,
shouldn't expect to be allowed to remain on a casino blackjack table very long.

Likewise, only entering a high stakes gambling establishment when you have
inside knowledge of a flaw in the manufacture of the playing cards, doesn't give
you the right to turn that casino into your personal ATM machine.

Case closed.
I recall a casino boss of years past...who explained his business by saying: "When the lamb goes to the butcher, it may be possible that the lamb could kill the butcher...but we like to bet on the butcher". I wonder what that casino boss would say today...when the "butchers" run crying to the courts of law, to get protection from the "lambs".
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 02:39 PM   #243
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
If a sloppy dealer exposes a hole card, you are not cheating by taking advantage of that. That is the fault of the casino, for not training their dealer properly.

The casino had every right to refuse Kelly Sun and Ivey's request for the special cards. They chose not to, because as good a poker player as Ivey is, he's known as a square in sports betting. They saw a whale betting at a game (they perceived) he had no advantage. Once they agreed to Ivey's terms, its all on them.
I'll go back to my original note.

If you were playing cards with some friends, one of them was accidentally exposing his hole card, and you were using it to your advantage would that person get pissed off if they found out?

I think the answer is 100% YES.

Of course it's their fault, but the ethical thing to do is to let them know and continue to play the game as it's intended.

There are two separate standards.

1. Legal
2. Ethical

The legal aspect of this is still being debated. That's what you are talking about.

Looking for a dealer you can outsmart and asking them to use a specific deck with cards arranged a certain way etc... is not ethical behavior. It's kind of like the difference between gambling on a pool game and hustling someone.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 01-09-2018 at 02:44 PM.
classhandicapper is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 02:52 PM   #244
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
Let's say I am a pool player.

A player that's slightly better than me challenges me to a game. I counter by saying I will play but I get to choose the table we play on. They are all the same brand tables with similar looking clothes so he says "yes" thinking he has a huge edge.

I then take him to the one table in the room in the back where the pockets are tighter than the rest. That's the table I've been practicing on for the last few weeks. I've learned to adjust my game to suit that specific table. We start playing and he's missing a lot of shots he normally makes. I've adjusted my stroke and strategy and start burying him.

I didn't do anything "wrong". He agreed to the terms.

But that's not gambling in a fair way where both sides are equally informed about the game, rules, conditions etc...

It's hustling.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

Last edited by classhandicapper; 01-09-2018 at 02:55 PM.
classhandicapper is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 03:20 PM   #245
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Let's say I am a pool player.

A player that's slightly better than me challenges me to a game. I counter by saying I will play but I get to choose the table we play on. They are all the same brand tables with similar looking clothes so he says "yes" thinking he has a huge edge.

I then take him to the one table in the room in the back where the pockets are tighter than the rest. That's the table I've been practicing on for the last few weeks. I've learned to adjust my game to suit that specific table. We start playing and he's missing a lot of shots he normally makes. I've adjusted my stroke and strategy and start burying him.

I didn't do anything "wrong". He agreed to the terms.

But that's not gambling in a fair way where both sides are equally informed about the game, rules, conditions etc...

It's hustling.
they had tables like that at an old pool room on broadway called McGirrs and a place in the combat zone in boston called "the mines", those tight pockets were the equalizer, no matter how good a guy could shoot!
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 03:34 PM   #246
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Classhandicapper...you are attempting to instill "ethics" in a gambling arena where they don't exist. Casino gambling isn't akin to sitting down in a "gentlemanly" game of poker with one's friends. The casinos have made it obvious that they will stoop to any measures that they have to in order to separate the customer from his cash...regardless of how "unethical" these measures might be. The early card-counters were using purely their skill while attempting to "beat the dealer"...and the casinos reacted by attempting to rob them through the deployment of crooked dealers. Which side acted more "unethically"?

As we speak...the casinos keep waitresses on the staff whose lone responsibility is to make sure that the liquor-glasses of certain high-betting customers are kept full on a constant basis, so they can keep their gambling "judgement" as off-balanced as possible...without caring in the LEAST about the huge losses that such a mental state invites...and you are here talking to us about "ethics"? The customer should do the "ethical thing" towards the casino...even as casino uses underhanded means to try and ROB him?
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 03:53 PM   #247
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Let's say I am a pool player.

A player that's slightly better than me challenges me to a game. I counter by saying I will play but I get to choose the table we play on. They are all the same brand tables with similar looking clothes so he says "yes" thinking he has a huge edge.

I then take him to the one table in the room in the back where the pockets are tighter than the rest. That's the table I've been practicing on for the last few weeks. I've learned to adjust my game to suit that specific table. We start playing and he's missing a lot of shots he normally makes. I've adjusted my stroke and strategy and start burying him.

I didn't do anything "wrong". He agreed to the terms.

But that's not gambling in a fair way where both sides are equally informed about the game, rules, conditions etc...

It's hustling.
You and I have never met each other...and we both find ourselves around the same Las Vegas poker table. We both scan our competition around the table...trying to spot the "fish" that we could effectively exploit. And once we do...we start disguising our intentions and our skill, in order to take advantage of them so we could take their money...while they, in turn, try to do the same to us. Being the "better players", we take the money, and we march happily to our cars...satisfied with the work that we did. Did we "hustle" anybody? Were we obligated to advertise our skill...so our opponents could have a "fair chance" against us? Did we CHEAT anybody?

There is GAMBLING, and then there are ETHICS...and seldom do the twain meet. As a serious gambler, you try to make money by using whatever "skills" that you possess...while trying to conceal those skills in order to take advantage of the "weaknesses" of others. And, if such an "unethical" behavior keeps you up nights...you keep telling yourself that you are doing nothing ILLEGAL. The gambler operates within the LEGAL boundaries...not the MORAL ones. And...if Ivey had done anything "illegal"...then he would have been ARRESTED. But he wasn't.

Whether you are the customer, or the casino...it is YOUR job to protect your bankroll. Your "competition" won't help you in that regard...nor should they. And there should be no "crying" when your money is gone.
__________________
Live to play another day.

Last edited by thaskalos; 01-09-2018 at 04:05 PM.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 04:22 PM   #248
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
The legal aspect of this is still being debated. That's what you are talking about.
Where is the legal aspect of Ivey's actions, "still debated"? I must have missed it...
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 04:38 PM   #249
tucker6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Looking for a dealer you can outsmart and asking them to use a specific deck with cards arranged a certain way etc... is not ethical behavior. It's kind of like the difference between gambling on a pool game and hustling someone.
If you go to a bar and hustle people at the pool table for drinks or money, should I seek out the straightest stick in the joint or blindly pick out one from the rack so as to not be ethically challenged? That's a serious question to your statement, because if you take your thought further out, any attempt at an advantage could be construed as ethically wrong. I'm simply trying to find out where you believe the ethical standard ends.
tucker6 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 04:44 PM   #250
tucker6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Let's say I am a pool player.

A player that's slightly better than me challenges me to a game. I counter by saying I will play but I get to choose the table we play on. They are all the same brand tables with similar looking clothes so he says "yes" thinking he has a huge edge.

I then take him to the one table in the room in the back where the pockets are tighter than the rest. That's the table I've been practicing on for the last few weeks. I've learned to adjust my game to suit that specific table. We start playing and he's missing a lot of shots he normally makes. I've adjusted my stroke and strategy and start burying him.

I didn't do anything "wrong". He agreed to the terms.

But that's not gambling in a fair way where both sides are equally informed about the game, rules, conditions etc...

It's hustling.
It's not hustling if you're the one being challenged though. If I were to challenge someone and they asked to pick the table, I'd be more than a little wary of doing so. Just like anything in life, buyer beware. It's no different than any other negotiation in the business world. I'll do X if Y and Z are prerequisite conditions. If those preconditions set up a successful transaction for me, was that ethically wrong or being a better businessman? I see no difference between my business example and your pool example. They both set preconditions that can be denied by the other side prior to beginning the transaction. Same in the Ivey case. The casino could have said no to the precondition but did not. Therefore, Ivey has no moral dilemma imo. He is simply following the rules both sides agreed to prior to play.
tucker6 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 04:51 PM   #251
tucker6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy View Post
they had tables like that at an old pool room on broadway called McGirrs and a place in the combat zone in boston called "the mines", those tight pockets were the equalizer, no matter how good a guy could shoot!
I was a pool shark of sorts back in college. My buddy and I used to practice on tournament sized tables with tight pockets for hours every week in our spare time. We'd then go to the bars on weekends with their easier tables and clean up. If you practice tight, everything else seems a breeze.
tucker6 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 07:21 PM   #252
Dave Schwartz
 
Dave Schwartz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 16,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Let's say I am a pool player.

A player that's slightly better than me challenges me to a game. I counter by saying I will play but I get to choose the table we play on. They are all the same brand tables with similar looking clothes so he says "yes" thinking he has a huge edge.

I then take him to the one table in the room in the back where the pockets are tighter than the rest. That's the table I've been practicing on for the last few weeks. I've learned to adjust my game to suit that specific table. We start playing and he's missing a lot of shots he normally makes. I've adjusted my stroke and strategy and start burying him.

I didn't do anything "wrong". He agreed to the terms.

But that's not gambling in a fair way where both sides are equally informed about the game, rules, conditions etc...

It's hustling.
What you describe above is not "hustling." It is "game making." Of course, I am presupposing that we're not talking about shark vs. guppie. In that case, a predator is a predator. (I couldn't sleep at night if I were a predator.)

As many people here have "admitted" to, I was also a serious pool player in my youth. Growing up in Miami, it was a very tough "market," because there were a lot of big boys back then.

While I thought I was a pretty good player - once ran 72 balls in a game of straight pool - it was acutely obvious (because of the local competition) that I was not a "real" pool player.

I was good enough to make a small living because of my "gamesmanship." That is, my ability to "make a good game," and not tilt at windmills.

I learned very quickly that I had no business at the same table with those whales with names like DiLiberto, "Corn Bread," "Weanie Beenie," and the like.

But it was all about game making. Kind of like horse racing.


Dave
PS: With the exception of Danny D, all of those guys have died, many violently or via drugs.

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 01-09-2018 at 07:23 PM.
Dave Schwartz is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-09-2018, 10:48 PM   #253
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,662
you might not have known that Weenie Beanie had his own pool room and bowling alley in Falls Church Virginia. that was around 1972.
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-10-2018, 03:39 PM   #254
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post
You and I have never met each other...and we both find ourselves around the same Las Vegas poker table. We both scan our competition around the table...trying to spot the "fish" that we could effectively exploit. And once we do...we start disguising our intentions and our skill, in order to take advantage of them so we could take their money...while they, in turn, try to do the same to us. Being the "better players", we take the money, and we march happily to our cars...satisfied with the work that we did. Did we "hustle" anybody? Were we obligated to advertise our skill...so our opponents could have a "fair chance" against us? Did we CHEAT anybody?

There is GAMBLING, and then there are ETHICS...and seldom do the twain meet. As a serious gambler, you try to make money by using whatever "skills" that you possess...while trying to conceal those skills in order to take advantage of the "weaknesses" of others. And, if such an "unethical" behavior keeps you up nights...you keep telling yourself that you are doing nothing ILLEGAL. The gambler operates within the LEGAL boundaries...not the MORAL ones. And...if Ivey had done anything "illegal"...then he would have been ARRESTED. But he wasn't.

Whether you are the customer, or the casino...it is YOUR job to protect your bankroll. Your "competition" won't help you in that regard...nor should they. And there should be no "crying" when your money is gone.
I fully understand what you are saying.

Let's put it this way.

A few years back I had no moral problem with watching games at Party Poker, looking for a table with a couple of weak players, and jumping in when I found one. The tables were open and I didn't mislead or trick anyone.

I would have a problem with hiding my pool skill or tricking someone into playing on a table they could not handle so I could take advantage of them.

When you are active in a deception, you are in an different place.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
classhandicapper is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-10-2018, 03:49 PM   #255
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,528
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy View Post
they had tables like that at an old pool room on broadway called McGirrs and a place in the combat zone in boston called "the mines", those tight pockets were the equalizer, no matter how good a guy could shoot!
I played in McGirrs once.

I got hustled.

Some guy I was in school with kept telling me he was a really good player. At the time, I was shooting 3-4 hours a day for several years and had gotten quite good. There weren't many players in the city my age that could beat me. I already knew every one of them. If this guy was better than me, I'd know him too. So we agreed to play. He told me he was going to take me to see McGirrs. The place was hopping and the only available table in the joint was a 5' by 10'. I never played on a 5' 10' but figured it couldn't be much different. It wasn't long after that I went into a coma and found out that he played on that table somewhat regularly. The good news is that after he beat me, he thought he was actually better. So I took him to Guys and Dolls and demolished him.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
classhandicapper is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.