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Old 08-04-2018, 12:01 PM   #7501
boxcar
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Figments of my imagination? Then please explain why there are literally thousands of different flavors of Christianity, and why 1500 years after Christ died MAN, and not God, decides the faith needs a change in direction? A change, mind you, that results in half of Christians today being classified as Protestants. Please explain why only 1/3 of the world's population, at best, is Christian? Please explain why religion and Christianity are so often used to terrify and control, when the underlying message is supposed to be "Good News"?

If the terms "holes" and "contradictions" are not to your liking, what term(s) would you use to describe the problems with Christianity today? Or do you believe all is well with the Christian faith?

As for script, you seem to think I meant interpretation. What I intended to communicate is that very, very, very, why not many at all, few people pick up the Bible and become saved. I suppose it happens. But the ones I've observed were usually led by the nose by a PERSON, not the Holy Spirit, or they were exposed to Christianity and the concept of being saved long before the blessed event takes place. This of course doesn't mean it's not an actual process, but there is significant confirmation (pun intended) bias involved. In other words, playing to the script.

Ask yourself this question, Boxcar. When did you first hear about Jesus? Reading the Bible, or being exposed to it through dogmatic practice by HUMANs?

I will not dispute that there are those that claim a direct connection with God, and have repeated experiences with that. However, this phenomena appears to be limited in scope to a fraction of the world's inhabitants, which again sets the table for intermediation by another PERSON in achieving a relationship with God. And if humility is required for one to experience indwelling of the Holy Spirit - why that opens up the mystery of how, in the World, did you come to experience it?
I'm not sure there are thousands of "different flavors" to Christianity. Hundreds, perhaps, but I think you greatly exaggerate.

The New Covenant Church of Christ is very much like the Old Covenant Nation Israel (a type of church). Even a cursory reading of the OT will bear out that God's "chosen people" were largely apostate and were driven three times from their promised land, as covenant-breakers, for their transgressions. (As the apostle Paul exhorts us (to paraphrase), "those things of former times were written for the Church's instruction today, cf. 1Cor 10:11).

Further, the OT instructs us that God has always saved a remnant of mankind. And so it is today with Christ's church. Nothing has changed. There are numerous professing Christians who profess to believe in Christ, who on the last day will be cast from the Lord's presence for all eternity because they never trusted Him (i.e. believed Him, as Abraham did, as one example). (See the end of Matthew 7.) We have one such person who has often posted in this thread!

Regarding the bible as the lone source for people's salvation, I seriously doubt you can back up your claim that only a tiny percentage of people can become saved by reading it. While, I would agree that a large percentage don't become saved in that manner, it is because has made his church a "kingdom of priests" for the very purpose of ministering to lost souls (among other things).

In my own case, I relied almost solely on the scriptures for my salvation, but in the end I became confused and frustrated until God led me to a godly pastor at a church in my area. After he answered several questions I had, I could no longer resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and I broke down and wept bitterly over my sins and asked God to forgive me. God literally saved me after I left the pastor's house and got into my car and started to reflect on things the pastor had told me.

I first heard about Jesus in a documentary film I saw -- "The Late Great Planet Earth" that dealt with the doctrine of eschatology. After seeing that movie, I bought the book because I tend to absorb things better through reading than by hearing. After I finished the book, I then went out and bought my first bible and eventually read it from cover to cover.

If there be any "holes" and "contradictions", they would be in the bible. But you're complaining about God's church. Or are you? If you're complaining about the state of God's church, then I would say that the church is largely apostate today -- but the apostasy isn't due to "holes" or "contradictions" in scripture. It's due to man's self-deceived, sinful nature.

As for "confirmation bias", all true believers will get that only from scripture. A Christian constantly examines his life in light of the Word of God. If a professing Christian's his life isn't essentially and substantially line with the Word, then he has no reason to believe he was ever saved to begin with. Conversely, comfort, joy, peace and all the other fruits of the Holy Spirit are confirmed in a true believer's heart when he is walking with God. Having said this, it's also important to understand that no Christian, no matter how devout or pious he/she is will ever attain to perfection in this life. Therefore, the Christian life is one of continual confession, repentance and active seeking of forgiveness.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:27 PM   #7502
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Why isn't God responsible for our choices? Maybe because He doesn't make them for us?
You claim god is an omniscient deity, and an omnipotent deity
Why can't you reason your way into understanding such claims logically invalidate free will exists? Logically your god is responsible for knowing and establishing the universe from beginning to end.
Quote:
Further, if God is responsible for all his imagers' choices, then wouldn't God also get the credit for all the myriads and myriads of angels who have never sinned and for Christ's perfect, sinless life?
Logically none of what you just babbled is verifiable.
Angels, Christ being perfect, or sin
Quote:
You're also overlooking the fact that God has provided mankind a remedy for sin in Christ -- a remedy that you freely choose to reject. So, on the last day when you stand before the Judge of all heaven and earth, what excuse will you offer? Will you blame God for not twisting your arm to force you to repent of your sins and believe the Gospel?
Free to accept, free to reject is what is in question
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And you still haven't told us, O Whiner, what your alternative would been at creation if you were God. Would you have created mindless, programmed machines or would you have been a tyrannical, despot who would have forced all people to bend to your will? Which of the two would you have been?
In order to to question your assumptions, I need not provide my own "scheme". But I have. You accuse me of being godless and blow your stack.
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Or looking at this from another perspective, which of the above two classes of entities would you prefer to be under God right this very moment? Would you prefer to be a programmed, mindless, soulless machine or a slave in bondage forever, always under compulsion to do the irresistible will of your Master and Creator, even when you don't want to do so?

Pick your poison.
Maybe there are other choices that we can not grasp in our usual mechanical state of being. You are stuck playing word games
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Old 08-04-2018, 02:28 PM   #7503
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You claim god is an omniscient deity, and an omnipotent deity
Why can't you reason your way into understanding such claims logically invalidate free will exists? Logically your god is responsible for knowing and establishing the universe from beginning to end.
Logically none of what you just babbled is verifiable.
Angels, Christ being perfect, or sin
Free to accept, free to reject is what is in question
In order to to question your assumptions, I need not provide my own "scheme". But I have. You accuse me of being godless and blow your stack.
Maybe there are other choices that we can not grasp in our usual mechanical state of being. You are stuck playing word games
God's attributes are no more inconsistent with free will than his love is with his justice. Unless God is a mindless machine or was coerced or forced by something to create the universe (both scenarios utterly absurd), then the only other option is that God freely chose to create. And since angels and men are created in his image, then it stands to reason he has given his rational creation the same power of fee choice.

You're the one who is constantly harping on how we mere mortals must have empathy, compassion and sympathy and the rest for our fellow man; but how can we have or feel or act on those qualities apart from having free choice. Can we really have compassion on someone apart from choosing to do so? Can we love someone, apart from choosing to do so? What is it that can make an act of kindness to another make the one bestowing the act stand out heads and shoulders above the rest? At the end of the day, is it really the act or is it the fact that a person for some seemingly inexplicable reason chose to do something for another that everyone else chose not do? Take the parable of the Good Samaritan, for example.

And what I said about Christ and the holy angels is verifiable in scripture -- the scripture you have freely chosen to not believe.
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Old 08-04-2018, 04:56 PM   #7504
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God's attributes are no more inconsistent with free will than his love is with his justice.
The opposite of Justice is Mercy. Mercy by knowing someone is guilty but deciding to show them mercy.

It makes no sense when you preach of a God of Love who Judges and rolls out "justice". Judgment is fear based and is the opposite of Love.

Because in this world there are two main forces. Love and Fear. My God is a God of Love and is Love based. Your God is a God of fear and is fear based.

A fear based God is what the Devil embraces. Fear makes you separate from God. Love brings you unity with God.

Wherever the Bible uses certain fear based words, I know this is interjection by man's own fears.

You cannot have a Loving God that is fear based as well. Love is content, and requires no revenge and no justice.
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:43 PM   #7505
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The opposite of Justice is Mercy. Mercy by knowing someone is guilty but deciding to show them mercy.

It makes no sense when you preach of a God of Love who Judges and rolls out "justice". Judgment is fear based and is the opposite of Love.

Because in this world there are two main forces. Love and Fear. My God is a God of Love and is Love based. Your God is a God of fear and is fear based.

A fear based God is what the Devil embraces. Fear makes you separate from God. Love brings you unity with God.

Wherever the Bible uses certain fear based words, I know this is interjection by man's own fears.

You cannot have a Loving God that is fear based as well. Love is content, and requires no revenge and no justice.
The kind of love you speak of is strictly worldly and not based in righteousness.

You conveniently overlook the fact that God is a righteous God, and as such his righteous nature requires that he administer justice to all who violate his law and reject his salvation. Righteousness and Justice are two sides of the same kind. If God ever failed to administer justice, then he would be as inherently unrighteous as you, me and everyone else in the world. And if God is unrighteous and profane like anyone else, then all bets are off for anything you or anyone else might dream up as a pathetic excuse for "godly" love.

Conversely, God's righteous nature does not require him to render mercy to any sinner. Nor does God's love require that he be merciful to all his image-bearers. God has provided no salvific remedy to all the fallen angels, for example.

The fear of God is a huge biblical theme in both Testaments. The fact that you ignore them demonstrates your hatred for God holy and righteous nature. This is why you're always bringing God and His Son down to your level. You believe your level of enlightenment and spirituality is so much superior to the Father's and the Son's.

Those who don't know God should fear him since God has the power to "kill" the soul, as well for all eternity.

But those who do know God, they hold Him in reverential awe and respect, having a keen sense of His total otherness. In fact, if it weren't for Christ, none of would be able to understand the first thing about God!

But you have neither kind of respect for God because to have the one, a true believer must have had the other at various times in his life. A true sense of God's otherness engenders also a fear of his justice; for every true believer knows he is fully deserving of God's righteous wrath. You think you can speak so confidently on "what cannot be"? Well, here's what cannot be: One can not say that he has reverential fear for his loving Creator and Redeemer without ever experience the other kind of fear -- the fear of his justice that all believers know they deserve.

As I have said often, the Cross of Jesus Christ demonstrates God's love and justice. It demonstrates his mercy and well as his anger and wrath. All these things meet and intersect at the Cross of Christ who became the sin bearer for all whom the Father has given to Him. This is precisely why there is no inconsistency or contradiction between love and justice or the love and the fear of God or mercy and divine wrath. God freely chose to be loving and merciful to many sinners on the basis of his grace which is grounded in his righteousness and holiness; while at the same time also choosing to administer justice to many others on the same basis of his righteousness and justice -- absent the grace. For God's righteousness does not morally require him to be gracious to anyone.

As I have very, very often said: God could not save the first soul, apart from being true to his righteous NATURE and serving JUSTICE.

At the end of the day, you must wind up totally ignoring a huge body of soteriological passages in both Testaments in addition to the fear of God, such as the doctrines of Reconciliation, Propitiation, Redemption, Atonement, etc. And all of these doctrines complement the Fear of God doctrine.

But hey...we all know you're a true lover of Buddha. You may have others fooled here...but not this writer. You're trusting in the man-made religion of Buddhism to get you wherever you think you are headed after death. Good luck with that.
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:57 PM   #7506
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Your analogy was implied. You were comparing what all people actually know about life through their everyday experiences to what people thought they knew about the physical world at one time.

Now, you dig a deeper hole for yourself with determinism. (It appears you are determined to make a fool of yourself, so maybe your fatal attraction to determinism is true after all. )
Quote:
You now argue in a circle
to wit: The people of the world are ignorant of determinism because of their ignorance (which you say is the fault of the education system). Cute.

Your personal "perception of reality" needs a lot of work.

Meanwhile, though...I'm still open to real world examples of when people don't presume that we all have the power of self-determination which accounts for how we all hold each other accountable for our choices. This applies across the spectrum of all human contact or relationships -- friends, relatives, acquaintances, spousal, professional, public office, private sector, workplace, etc.

Here's my perception of reality: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and water rolls off the critter's feathers like it would off a duck, then it's a duck. Prove me wrong.
You accusing someone of circular reasoning is truly hilarious.Circular reasoning is the linchpin of your entire worldview.

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Old 08-04-2018, 08:10 PM   #7507
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You accusing someone of circular reasoning is truly hilarious.Circular reasoning is the linchpin of your entire worldview.
Nope. Wanna try again? On the other hand, don't bother. Been around this block more than once with our resident scientist.

But accusing me of circular reasoning doesn't mitigate your offense of incoherence. So...be sure to first remove the beam from your own eye so that you can clearly see whatever you think is in mine.
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:14 PM   #7508
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The kind of love you speak of is strictly worldly and not based in righteousness.
Incorrect. The "righteousness" you speak of in God's name is the same as the worst butchers in human history. Pick a despicable ruler in human history and he is the same as your God, wiping out people, destroying hating them with his "righteousness".

That is the lowest form of consciousness. The love I speak of is the highest form of consciousness and that is unconditional Love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
God is a righteous God, and as such his righteous nature requires that he administer justice to all who violate his law and reject his salvation.
No God doesn't judge people. His own son said so. God administers Love. Your Ego administers YOUR sick interpretation of God's law.

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Originally Posted by boxcar
If God ever failed to administer justice, then he would be as inherently unrighteous as you, me and everyone else in the world.
So God is a cop? Take your meds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Conversely, God's righteous nature does not require him to render mercy to any sinner. Nor does God's love require that he be merciful to all his image-bearers. God has provided no salvific remedy to all the fallen angels, for example.
Your God is hard hearted and an illusion of Ego. The proof is that you are talking about an anthropomorphic God rather than true God which is a universal energy within us and and surrounding us.

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Originally Posted by boxcar
The fear of God is a huge biblical theme in both Testaments. The fact that you ignore them demonstrates your hatred for God holy and righteous nature.
No, the fact that I ignore a fear based God shows that I am not an idiot to believe that God hates his own creation, terrorizes them etc. Only people with hate in their heads believe that.

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Originally Posted by boxcar
Those who don't know God should fear him since God has the power to "kill" the soul, as well for all eternity.
More idiocy. God does not kill souls because he is the souls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
for every true believer knows he is fully deserving of God's righteous wrath.
Moronic.

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Originally Posted by boxcar
As I have said often, the Cross of Jesus Christ demonstrates God's love and justice. It demonstrates his mercy and well as his anger and wrath.
To YOU it looks that way. God and Jesus knew men would crucify Jesus for spreading Love because men couldn't accept the words of someone preaching love and peace. Just like you want to crucify me for talking of a loving God. Nothing has changed.


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But hey...we all know you're a true lover of Buddha. You may have others fooled here...but not this writer. You're trusting in the man-made religion of Buddhism to get you wherever you think you are headed after death. Good luck with that.
I'll give you more ammo. Besides Buddha and Jesus there are other wise men that I have learned from in my life such as Krishna, Mohammad, Lao Tzu and leaders of other religions. Because they all point to the same God.

One day you will learn the secret of life. That as Jesus said, God is within. And he is Love.
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Old 08-05-2018, 01:36 AM   #7509
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The following is my proof of reincarnation which dispels the false notion of living ONLY this one life.

This life is given to us. Our consciousness/spirit had to exist BEFORE our bodies existed.

If our consciousness/spirit did not exist before we received our bodies, that would mean we are purely biological creatures as the Atheists say. In that case, when we die, that's it. Because the physical body cannot create the spiritual soul.

Only if we come into our bodies from the spiritual would it mean there is an a soul in our bodies that we brought into it since the body cannot produce it.

So if you believe we have souls or spirits then they existed before our physical bodies existed otherwise you are attributing supernatural power to our bodies ability to create souls.

God said "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb.

This is a testament to our souls infinite existence and our souls oneness with God.

Last edited by Light; 08-05-2018 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:21 AM   #7510
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God's attributes are no more inconsistent with free will than his love is with his justice. Unless God is a mindless machine or was coerced or forced by something to create the universe (both scenarios utterly absurd), then the only other option is that God freely chose to create. And since angels and men are created in his image, then it stands to reason he has given his rational creation the same power of fee choice.
No there is no reason. Literally.Everything that happened, will happen is predestined. What's the point?

And your god wrote every line in the script, and knows how it will turn out, no matter the illusion of free will given to man.

TJDave said
Quote:
An omniscient god
If you know the answers and punishment beforehand itís not a test...itís cruelty.
Welcome back TJ.
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:58 AM   #7511
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Maybe after my study, I'll write a movie script.
And sell it to Pureflix no doubt.
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Old 08-05-2018, 03:19 AM   #7512
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The "ad hominem" you deserved when you asked a downright stupid question.
Once again you demonstrate your complete ignorance of logic. An ad hominem is not simply name calling.

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Ad Hominem
This translates as ďto the manĒ and refers to any attacks on the person advancing the argument, rather than on the validity of the evidence or logic. Itís is one thing to say that I donít agree with you, but itís another thing to say that I donít like you, and you are wrong because I don't like you; evil people often make valid claims, and good people often make invalid claims, so separate the claim from the person. Like the emotional appeal, the validity of an argument has utterly nothing to do with the character of those presenting it. -- Tom Drake
Anyone resorting to an ad hominem argument simply has no argument and is effectively admitting defeat.

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Sagan and Nietzsche, heh? Mr. Hades and Mr. Second Death. Quite a "winning" pair those two. Do they ever try to outdo each other to see who can tell the most lies?
I'm no fan of Nietzsche but, unlike you, I am not afraid to read his ideas. The jury is still out.

By the way, I've never heard the term "Second Death". Does that come from Nietzsche's writings? Just asking?
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:28 PM   #7513
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Once again you demonstrate your complete ignorance of logic. An ad hominem is not simply name calling.



Anyone resorting to an ad hominem argument simply has no argument and is effectively admitting defeat.

I'm no fan of Nietzsche but, unlike you, I am not afraid to read his ideas. The jury is still out.

By the way, I've never heard the term "Second Death". Does that come from Nietzsche's writings? Just asking?
It's good that you are not afraid to read his ideas...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...postcount=2497

https://www.google.com/search?q=niet...hrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?ei=jRV...30.FVVC9dmrdBo
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:48 PM   #7514
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The following is my proof of reincarnation which dispels the false notion of living ONLY this one life.

This life is given to us. Our consciousness/spirit had to exist BEFORE our bodies existed.

If our consciousness/spirit did not exist before we received our bodies, that would mean we are purely biological creatures as the Atheists say. In that case, when we die, that's it. Because the physical body cannot create the spiritual soul.

Only if we come into our bodies from the spiritual would it mean there is an a soul in our bodies that we brought into it since the body cannot produce it.

So if you believe we have souls or spirits then they existed before our physical bodies existed otherwise you are attributing supernatural power to our bodies ability to create souls.

God said "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb.

This is a testament to our souls infinite existence and our souls oneness with God.
You cannot reason your way through the scriptures with your canal mind to prove your pet Buddhist doctrines, as though those doctrines are in the bible. The text to which you allude to in small part reads in full:

Jer 1:5
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

NIV

How dishonest of you to omit the full passage, especially part B where is in boldface.

All this passage is teaching is that by God's sovereign decree, He determined that Jeremiah would come into this world for the purpose of being God's prophet to the nations. All part A of the text is teaching is that God's eternal decrees are so certain to come to pass, Jeremiah's birth was a fait accompli; therefore, in this sense God "knew" Jeremiah because in God's mind in eternity, Jeremiah's birth, for all practical intent and purposes, had already taken place. In fact, there are many prophecies in scripture that are spoken of in the past tense, as if they had already been fulfilled, to drive home the same point of absolute certainty of the fulfillment of the decrees and prophecies of an all-powerful sovereign God.

Lam 3:37
37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?

NASB

Further, you would need to reconcile your "best friend's" words that clearly refute your interpretation of the above passage.

Heb 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
NASB

After David's infant died, as God's punishment for David's great sins, this is what the king wrote:

2 Sam 12:23
23 "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."
NASB

David had no thoughts about either him or his infant son returning to this earth. His son was in Sheol which was also David's immediate destination upon his death.

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
NASB

Jesus knew nothing of any reincarnation either. He didn't tell thief to not sweat it because he's going to get another whack at life here on earth. Not at all! He, too, told the thief that he would be with him in Paradise (a NT term for OT Sheol for saints). (No saint preceded Christ in heaven before he bodily ascended to his throne.)

Jesus teaching about his Second Coming and the judgment upon all mankind that would ensue said:

Matt 25:46
46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASB

Eternal life for his disciples and eternal punishment for the wicked. Again, Jesus knew nothing about any reincarnation mumbo jumbo.

Reincarnation is another of your favorite Buddhist doctrines that you try to import into the bible -- but all in vain. For this Buddhist teaching of a 1,001 chances at life, is opposed to the entire tenor of scripture.

The only thing you have provided us with more concrete proof of is that you're not a true believer in Jesus because you cannot believe what he says in his Word. And the bible is HIS Word. So much so, Jesus himself carries the very name!

Rev 19:13
13 And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.
NASB

It's not possible to be a "believer in" Jesus and simultaneously not believe a word he has inspired his prophets and apostles to write in the Word of God. Your faith is as fake as the political news on very much of the lamestream media.

Wake up, O Sleeper, while it's still Day, for the Night is rapidly approaching... for you!
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Old 08-05-2018, 02:52 PM   #7515
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Once again you demonstrate your complete ignorance of logic. An ad hominem is not simply name calling.



Anyone resorting to an ad hominem argument simply has no argument and is effectively admitting defeat.

I'm no fan of Nietzsche but, unlike you, I am not afraid to read his ideas. The jury is still out.

By the way, I've never heard the term "Second Death". Does that come from Nietzsche's writings? Just asking?
You earned the "ad hominem", O Senile One. It appears your onboard RAM needs replacement. What you have now up on you attic isn't working too swell.

And, no, the phrase "Second Death" comes from the bible.
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