frank stronach tosses a bomb...

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

While owners have benefited from those decisions, it is more a function of racing having given the customers what they've wanted over the past 35 years which has racing circling the toilet in 2019.

In 1984 we sat around trading punches in the WPS pools all day, with everyone knowing a much greater chance of going home with most of their bankroll, with enough to play another day. Furthermore, we played almost every race with the revenue churning each time the bell sounded.


It wasn't some brainiac suddenly inventing the pick-3 as if it were an artificial heart (and a godsend for the whole of society), it was a function of giving the public what it wanted which began the life-sucking exercise of putting money on the shelf and leaving it there for X races at a time. That while at the same time making it exponentially more difficult to win the bets you make and having anything left for tomorrow.

That trend began in earnest with the late 1980's and it was soon exacerbated by turning on the signals to multiple simulcast tracks with more and more OTB's scattered around, all of which served to harm the big picture in the interest of seeming to make it somehow better for the individual at the time.

Horse racing lost a generation of young, new fans in ways which parallel China having lost a generation of daughters, but at least China has shown the common sense to begin to repair what it has done to itself while horse racing and nearly all of you are too clueless to recognize what you've been doing to yourselves for decades.

Common sense is a prerequisite for turning around this complete mess you have thrust upon yourselves and it appears that none of you here can even understand what you have done to yourselves, and to racing by your own repetitive blunders, so clearly common sense is way beyond your pay grades.


Nobody need give a #$&* about racing surfaces, late money, takeout, or drugs in racing, as those are mere Band-aid wounds relative to all of that woes that you yourselves have brought upon racing over the past 35 years.

Common sense would recognize the impossible equation which you have created for the would-be (lol - lets use highnote's absurd suggestion: ) "young" new track visitor when he/she steps into the mutuel pools and then common sense would make the ONLY priority to bring some hope, and some balance to that person's grim outlook which was effected entirely by you.


Instead of employing common sense in reversing the lethal effects of your clueless paths, you instead ask the insane questions which parallel:

"Well what more can racing do for me ???? "

(and you decide that your position is correct just by virtue of so many other industry stakeholders asking the same wrong-sighted question)


Horse racing as it has devolved in North America is still the ONLY gamble out there which can actually DO something direct for its customers every minute of the racing day... and yet the whole industry combined does the sum total of ZERO for its customers merely because it's always been that way.


Common sense simply doesn't mesh with the racing industry's screwed-up way of thinking.


When horse racing resolves to Doooooooooooo something in uniform fashion for ALL of those who wander through its gates each day, only then will it begin to reverse the strong currents which see it only circling the toilet in 2019.


Doing one more idiotic thing to appease Barry Irwin and then letting yourselves feel that you've been fair to all just isn't going to suffice anywhere outside of the drain.

Whom are you holding mainly to blame for this mess...the industry...or the customers? When the horseracing industry expanded their exotics betting menu, and then instituted full-card simulcasting and widespread OTBs...did they do it out of GREED...or were they just kindheartedly catering to the whims of their customers?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...-is-very-real/

Go to the "Numbers are, Frankly, Staggering" section, and you'll gain good insight into the demographics of the fan base, which helps answer your question, in part.

I read the article...but I am still a little confused. Are the confirmed horseplayers really leaving this game because of fantasy sports, or "E-Sports"? And...where is sports-betting legal outside of Nevada and New Jersey? I'm not being facetious here...I am being serious. As I said before...I understand why our youth isn't selecting horse racing as their game of choice. But I doubt that horse racing's existing fan base is fleeing the game due to the lure of fantasy sports or E-Sports. And sports-betting is still largely illegal.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I read the article...but I am still a little confused. Are the confirmed horseplayers really leaving this game because of fantasy sports, or "E-Sports"? And...where is sports-betting legal outside of Nevada and New Jersey? I'm not being facetious here...I am being serious. As I said before...I understand why our youth isn't selecting horse racing as their game of choice. But I doubt that horse racing's existing fan base is fleeing the game due to the lure of fantasy sports or E-Sports. And sports-betting is still largely illegal.

I assume it's a combination of factors. According to the Jockey Club, US handle totaled $10.9 billion in 2017, down from $15.1 billion in 2004 (the peak was $15.2 billion in 2003). At the same time, revenue generated by US casinos totaled $76.6 billon in 2017, up from $50.7 billion in 2004 (Source: statista).

[dilanesp]

I happen to have some perspective on this, because I'm a fan of two other "dying" sports, track and field and boxing.

The first thing you have to understand is simply that tastes change over time. If we all got into a time machine and went back to the 1930's, we would find a world where horse racing was enormously popular. But we would also find a world where pro basketball didn't exist, pro football was not very popular at all (though college football was), baseball was by far the most popular sport in the country, hockey was nothing more than a regional niche product, and many sports that nowadays command substantial audiences, like beach volleyball and mixed martial arts, simply didn't exist.

So your theory can't simply account for horse racing. It has to show why it is that horse racing declined and all these other sports increased in popularity. And the answer is, tastes change over time. We are simply different people from the people who inhabited America 90 years ago. We have different interests, as a people.

The second thing is there's just a lot more legal gambling available. Horse racing was basically a monopoly in most places back in the day. It and the lottery are still a duopoly in Hong Kong-- the closest casinos are in Macau. But now, in most in America, you can play all sorts of things. And note, not all of them have low takeout. You can certainly find a craps game with a 1 percent takeout in much of the country, but you can also find tons of people playing lottery games with 50 percent takeouts. There's just a lot more choices for people.

None of those things are the industry's fault.

Now, there are definitely are things that ARE the industry's fault. I have pointed many of them out before. But this idea that we've just blown it as an industry is false. The industry could have done everything right and still lost a ton of its fans.

[tophatmert]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Please elaborate.

I reside in Illinois and have watched the decline of Illinois racing and while I still bet a decent amount of money the great majority of it is on racing from other states. Constant threats of shutting down from management , customer service geared towards "take what we give you or shut up". Free snacks and soft drinks for VIP's instead of a decent rebate. At Arlington for many years races came off the turf constantly to save the course for the Arlington Million. The everyday players I knew irritated as hell about it. I could go on with more but I'm already pissed enough. The short term goal seems to be to save racing long enough to get casino licenses and the long term goal seems to be eventually operate casinos and sportsbooks and forget the racing. I probably don't have a great deal of admissible evidence ,just a feeing I've had for a long time. There do seem to be a great deal of adversarial relationships among the stakeholders in racing. I always appreciate your posts Andy.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Okay...let's say that yesterday's bowlers and pool players are now out on the golf course. What do you suppose the ex-horseplayers are doing now? Aren't all the other gambling alternatives WAY more inconvenient than horseracing? In what other legal gambling endeavor can you participate fully while still in the comfort of your own home...in your pajamas?

I can see why horseracing isn't attracting any uninitiated new players...but the game is losing its existing, dedicated fan base, and it isn't just that the hardcore horseplayers are dying off. Are the ex-horseplayers out on the golf course too; you would know that better than I.

What you believe to be a positive turned out to be a big negative for me. When betting from home first became available I thought I had died and gone to heaven. From a betting perspective it was heaven but I soon found out that the enjoyment of being a horseplayer was not solely a function of betting. For me, the social aspect of going to the track or OTB was far more important than I had realized. I don't enjoy playing the races in isolation, it became a job and was no longer a passion.

I don't know the mindset of other ex-horseplayers but I do not have a need to gamble. I get no endorphin rush from placing or winning a bet. I suppose that many are betting sports (which can be done as easily as betting horses), playing poker, or going to the casinos.

For me and a lot of my horseplaying buddies, golf was always part of the picture. Dark days were golf days. Now horseracing has been eliminated or greatly reduced for many but the golf and the camaraderie carry on.

[tophatmert]

Originally Posted by AndyC

What you believe to be a positive turned out to be a big negative for me. When betting from home first became available I thought I had died and gone to heaven. From a betting perspective it was heaven but I soon found out that the enjoyment of being a horseplayer was not solely a function of betting. For me, the social aspect of going to the track or OTB was far more important than I had realized. I don't enjoy playing the races in isolation, it became a job and was no longer a passion.

I don't know the mindset of other ex-horseplayers but I do not have a need to gamble. I get no endorphin rush from placing or winning a bet. I suppose that many are betting sports (which can be done as easily as betting horses), playing poker, or going to the casinos.

For me and a lot of my horseplaying buddies, golf was always part of the picture. Dark days were golf days. Now horseracing has been eliminated or greatly reduced for many but the golf and the camaraderie carry on.

The golf has got me also. Play golf maybe a nice meal somewhere afterwards. I too loved the social aspect of the live or simulcast racing but eventually found it a grind. I was a good customer and wondered why they just let me leave without at least asking me why I stopped coming. When I stopped using Twinspires for my ADW I heard nothing. Shouldn't they have at least dropped me a line and ask if there was something they could do for me.

[airford1]

Originally Posted by tophatmert

The golf has got me also. Play golf maybe a nice meal somewhere afterwards. I too loved the social aspect of the live or simulcast racing but eventually found it a grind. I was a good customer and wondered why they just let me leave without at least asking me why I stopped coming. When I stopped using Twinspires for my ADW I heard nothing. Shouldn't they have at least dropped me a line and ask if there was something they could do for me.

I believe that the sports management see to writing on the wall and are just trying to keep it alive for them to make it to retirement. Yes they should solicit your opinion for not wagering any longer. Too bad I really liked horse racing init's golden years, but today they wont be able to tell you who won the Derby 1 day after the race. Like Frank or not if it wasn't for him putting money into Santa Anita it would be shanty.

[burnsy]

I agree with much of what I’m reading here. Yes, horse racing is not as popular. No, hard core horse players are not leaving for Casinos or Sports betting because it’s legal. I’ve been betting football almost as long as I’ve been betting horses. But I bet way less horse racing now because the races suck, people are slamming huge money in before it’s computed, which at the tracks I bet used to be impossible to do. It doesn’t matter if it’s Saratoga or Belmont the freaking odds change like its Saratoga Harness now. For people that are not serious they are down 30 or 40 bucks walking in while the casinos are giving you shit to come play.

What I’m saying is this game has been mismanaged for decades and there are things beyond their control. My point is you are doing the industry no favors with the betting situation I described, 5 horse fields, horses constantly retiring leading to claimers filling out Grade 2’s and Allowance horses filling out Grade 1’s. The handicap level is past embarrassing on the dirt. The drugs , so horses are dependent on drugs and the cheating. When there are things beyond your control you cut back, get leaner and meaner. You don’t try to race more or deny the current conditions to the point of neglect. And you don’t show disdain to your loyal customers. When the thread becomes an argument over who the stakeholders are......you know damn well there are some that are in total denial mode!

[highnote]

Originally Posted by airford1

I believe that the sports management see to writing on the wall and are just trying to keep it alive for them to make it to retirement. Yes they should solicit your opinion for not wagering any longer. Too bad I really liked horse racing init's golden years, but today they wont be able to tell you who won the Derby 1 day after the race. Like Frank or not if it wasn't for him putting money into Santa Anita it would be shanty.

Yep. Frank has put a lot of money into racing. He has the right to run his tracks any way he wants to.

However, racing is still going down the tubes. I put suggestions on here just to get people thinking, not because I think my suggestions MUST be followed because they are guaranteed to be successful. If racing insiders read this board maybe they will find something useful. If not, that's ok.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Whom are you holding mainly to blame for this mess...the industry...or the customers? When the horseracing industry expanded their exotics betting menu, and then instituted full-card simulcasting and widespread OTBs...did they do it out of GREED...or were they just kindheartedly catering to the whims of their customers?

Aren’t you all forgetting the ease of getting information, and good information, and how that has resulted in payoff prices going down?

Where’s the edge the hard-studying handicapper could gain when now anyone can easily pull up the Beyer, Rags, TGs, BRIS, Timeform, race replays, work videos, and more?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Aren’t you all forgetting the ease of getting information, and good information, and how that has resulted in payoff prices going down?

Where’s the edge the hard-studying handicapper could gain when now anyone can easily pull up the Beyer, Rags, TGs, BRIS, Timeform, race replays, work videos, and more?

I can only speak for myself...but I consider all these handicapping products that you've mentioned as mere TOOLS...which need to be properly utilized by a skilled craftsman. What difference does it make to me if every horseplayer out there uses the same handicapping materials as me? Did Michelangelo care if the other painters used the same brushes and paints as he did? What determines the quality of the finished product; the tools...or the skill of the craftsman?

I like to think that I bring a lot more to the table than just the handicapping products that I use.

[highnote]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I can only speak for myself...but I consider all these handicapping products that you've mentioned as mere TOOLS...which need to be properly utilized by a skilled craftsman. What difference does it make to me if every horseplayer out there uses the same handicapping materials as me? Did Michelangelo care if the other painters used the same brushes and paints as he did? What determines the quality of the finished product; the tools...or the skill of the craftsman?

I like to think that I bring a lot more to the table than just the handicapping products that I use.

[Some_One]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

I assume it's a combination of factors. According to the Jockey Club, US handle totaled $10.9 billion in 2017, down from $15.1 billion in 2004 (the peak was $15.2 billion in 2003). At the same time, revenue generated by US casinos totaled $76.6 billon in 2017, up from $50.7 billion in 2004 (Source: statista).

Just to add some betting handles, HK up 15% from 14/15 season to last season, 107925 HK$M to 124282 HK$M
(https://res.hkjc.com/racingnews/wp-c...mplate-eng.pdf)

And Australia from 09/10 to 17/18 up 35% from 14398 AU$M to 19554 AU$M which means Australia that is 1/10th of the US pop does more handle on racing. (pg 109 http://publishingservices.risa.com.a...2017-2018/110/) and they would have similar pressures from land based casinos, betting shops and online betting as the US plus similar cultural pressures about changing demographics as the US.

[iamt]

A large portion of the HK gain comes from international commingling.

The domestic handle actually dropped 1% last year.