2017 Poker Discussion Thread

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Even without the dealer there?

Sure. But with the cameras. :P

[how cliche]

Got to thinking about it this morning and besides 4 betting light, what else is immediately obvious to me that I can improve on?

I had value hand's periodically throughout the games against good players and when deep stacked I only got 2 streets of value post flop. Flop and river every time, even the times they were the in position 3 bettor pre. How does one get 3 streets more often? I should work on this.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by how cliche

Got to thinking about it this morning and besides 4 betting light, what else is immediately obvious to me that I can improve on?

I had value hand's periodically throughout the games against good players and when deep stacked I only got 2 streets of value post flop. Flop and river every time, even the times they were the in position 3 bettor pre. How does one get 3 streets more often? I should work on this.

No limit or limit?

In limit, you should be looking for 3 streets most of the time when you think you have the best hand, because the cost of paying off a raise is not very high anyway.

In no limit, you need a hand that will get called three times, which requires (1) a strong enough hand (so you aren't value-owning yourself), (2) an opponent who is willing to pay you off and has a strong enough range to do it frequently, and (3) a cooperative board (you probably aren't going for three streets of value anymore with AhAd when the flop comes Jc9c4d and the turn is the Tc).

[how cliche]

I'm an MTT NLH tournament player.

Two examples from over the holiday weekend.

1st game at The Golden Nugget. Level one 25-50. 25k effective stacks. It opens from middle position to 150. Cutoff and button call, small blind folds. It gets to me in the big blind holding AK off. I squeeze to 750. Button is the only caller. 1825 to the flop.

The Flop is 3A7 rainbow. I cbet 925. Button calls. 3675 to the turn which is a ten. 3A79. It goes check check.

River pairs the 7. 3A797. It goes check bet 2k call. Pretty obvious the king kicker plays & I couldn't get him to try and take it on the turn. Probably had AQAJAT. Less often 88JJQQ and because I checked turn he didn't believe me. IDK seems a generic hand.


3rd game at Venetian. 50-100. Both of us had a good first level. Effective stacks 32k.


Two limpers. In the hijack I hold 99. I open to 500. Loose aggressive early 20's button 3 bets to 1250. Not folding a top 5% hand. I'll speculate and call. Depending on the board texture I'll continue or not. 3350 to the flop.

Flop comes out K49. Dude always cbets and I don't want to reveal the strength of my hand so I check call his 1700 continuation. 7750 to the turn. Which is a 5. K495. It goes check check.

River is a king. I have to get value. I bet 6700. He takes a long time and eventually calls. I made up my mind that I was snap calling the aggression he was trying to level himself into. He was looking for courage and was lucky he didn't find any.

This hand feels like I missed a street.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by how cliche

I'm an MTT NLH tournament player.

Two examples from over the holiday weekend.

1st game at The Golden Nugget. Level one 25-50. 25k effective stacks. It opens from middle position to 150. Cutoff and button call, small blind folds. It gets to me in the big blind holding AK off. I squeeze to 750. Button is the only caller. 1825 to the flop.

The Flop is 3A7 rainbow. I cbet 925. Button calls. 3675 to the turn which is a ten. 3A79. It goes check check.

River pairs the 7. 3A797. It goes check bet 2k call. Pretty obvious the king kicker plays & I couldn't get him to try and take it on the turn. Probably had AQAJAT. Less often 88JJQQ and because I checked turn he didn't believe me. IDK seems a generic hand.


3rd game at Venetian. 50-100. Both of us had a good first level. Effective stacks 32k.


Two limpers. In the hijack I hold 99. I open to 500. Loose aggressive early 20's button 3 bets to 1250. Not folding a top 5% hand. I'll speculate and call. Depending on the board texture I'll continue or not. 3350 to the flop.

Flop comes out K49. Dude always cbets and I don't want to reveal the strength of my hand so I check call his 1700 continuation. 7750 to the turn. Which is a 5. K495. It goes check check.

River is a king. I have to get value. I bet 6700. He takes a long time and eventually calls. I made up my mind that I was snap calling the aggression he was trying to level himself into. He was looking for courage and was lucky he didn't find any.

This hand feels like I missed a street.

If you bet the turn...does he call a serious bet on the river? My guess is he doesn't.

[how cliche]

it's a question i asked myself. versus his entire range i probably played the hand well. idk. i think i get a river shove out of him a lot with one hand. ak. i feel like he had a lot of kq and kj off. a little less kt. there's also a good portion of his range that's ttjjqq, teeny bit of aa. i like to hope that's where he was. if so then i like the larger river play i made, cuz it looks like i want folds and that the line i took was fishy.

immediately after the hand i thought the best line of play was check call, donk turn, shove riv. feel like i'm only getting that paid by ak 44 and 55 with the run out.

all told it was value. got almost 10k of his stack from him on a dry board hand. really only booted it if he held ak 44 or 55.

[thaskalos]

If he had 44 or 55, the turn doesn't go check-check...and you don't get the crying call on the river. It's also debatable that he checks back on the turn with AK...given his "aggressive" nature. He probably held QQ or JJ...and you got as much as you could out of the hand.

[dilanesp]

On the 99 hand, that board is really dry, which limits the amount of value you can get from your opponent's range. A ton of stuff is going to be folding to any aggressive action by you.

On the AK hand, if you are looking to get more value, increase your flop bet. 1220 is 2/3rds of the pot. You could even throw out a nearly pot sized bet of 1600 or so. Not only does that bet get you more immediate value, but it sets you up to get more in on the later streets.

[how cliche]

the issue i have with betting .666-.8 on the flop is: it was a table full of pros. pros are attentive. a lot of hands miss me and i still want to cbet. if i bet .75 when i hit and half when i miss they'll pick up on the sizing tell very quickly. these players were the real deal. this little 600bi game more than doubled the 500k guarantee and there were multiple tv dudes i had to my left.

[how cliche]

the issue i have with betting .666-.8 on the flop is: it was a table full of pros. pros are attentive. a lot of hands miss me and i still want to cbet. if i bet .75 when i hit and half when i miss they'll pick up on the sizing tell very quickly. these players were the real deal. this little 600bi game more than doubled the 500k guarantee and there were multiple tv dudes i had to my left.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by how cliche

the issue i have with betting .666-.8 on the flop is: it was a table full of pros. pros are attentive. a lot of hands miss me and i still want to cbet. if i bet .75 when i hit and half when i miss they'll pick up on the sizing tell very quickly. these players were the real deal. this little 600bi game more than doubled the 500k guarantee and there were multiple tv dudes i had to my left.

You see what I put in bold above? This is exactly what you DO want them to pick up on. Later, you can exploit them by betting opposite....that is, if they're really attentive pros like you say they are.

Bottom-line, DO be perceived as a strict, tight math guy, you'll do much better in the long run if you keep your "genius" to yourself....

[how cliche]

Question. Saw earlier Thask put the phrase "update" in quotes. Now I see RR put the phrase "genius" in quotes. What do these quotes mean?

Updates were given to the regs back home the moment I got back to my room, as they were fresh in my mind from hands recently played. Then there was some next day reflection I felt was worthwhile for readers. IDK.

I've not ever claimed myself to be anything approaching a genius, but do think I'm a man of reasonable intelligence. It makes one wonder then why I spend so much time and effort chasing the rabbit called tournament poker. Maybe I'm of unreasonable intelligence after all.

Regarding adjusting cbet sizing in game as a reverse tell, that's an advanced strategy that's beyond my skill level currently. It's an interesting idea and would like to hear in game examples you've employed, RR. I then could devise a plan to implement it and start going after it sooner.

[how cliche]

not that anyone cares, but i played in a 160 BI daily at bay 101 today. 90 runners. finished 8th. +540 for the effort. 4100 for 1st. that's -400 up top to pay 10th and 11th 200 each. dailies are structured poorly. chip leader had 25 bigs. i went out with 11 bigs in the big blind. cutoff open shoved his 11.5bb with aces. i had 99 and it's a must call. standard.

skill edge over these fish negated by the structure. 20m levels. skips a lot of levels. field of 90 and there were maybe 2 decent players, both northern part of the country italians and neither cashed. felt badly for them as they were skilled. then there was the chip leader who thought he's good. lol. kept limp folding. kept calling all ins bad w sub chart range and passing. i hope he finishes first, seriously. then he'll not work on a thing.

[proximity]

Originally Posted by how cliche

not that anyone cares, but i played in a 160 BI daily at bay 101 today. 90 runners. finished 8th. +540 for the effort. .

good job and I do think people care. It does get quiet here sometimes though.

are you still running? your progress was pretty impressive. I'm trying to merely hike 100 miles here in july to get ready for vegas. a little behind pace so far but i'll get there.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by how cliche

Question. Saw earlier Thask put the phrase "update" in quotes. Now I see RR put the phrase "genius" in quotes. What do these quotes mean?

Bottom-line, everybody's got the math, ranges and positional leverage down pat....So tell me, where's your edge? Your edge should be your image or perception to others at all times. Your "genius" is how good you conceal your solid game in a droll, math geek stealth mode.....That's your edge, let them think they're the geniuses while you show them nothing.

Poker---->Such a boring game nowadays..