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02-18-2019, 11:20 AM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davew
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It is their money.
1. The courts ruled it was their money.
2. I really don't think people should sympathize with Ivey here. If you come up with a scheme to turn a house banked game in your favor, and play it for millions of dollars, you can absolutely be assured that the casino is going to fight you hard if they find out what you are doing.
That is the risk of doing this sort of business.
There are ways to not get into this kind of trouble. They include not being so greedy (if the amount involved had been $50,000 a pop, Ivey might have been able to pull it over and over again at different casinos without necessarily being detected), doing it only once, or just not doing it at all because you are a super-rich poker player who is set for life even if you retire and don't shoot any more gambling angles.
Ivey basically did this in the way that was absolutely most likely to get him caught, and then fought the casinos in a very public manner rather than just entering into a settlement. (Indeed, I bet he wouldn't have even had to pay back all the money in a settlement. He had some leverage with his position in the litigation.) He took on some very powerful people and he lost. That's on Ivey.
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07-21-2019, 12:26 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,755
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07-21-2019, 06:10 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secondbest
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If Borgata used as much diligence in supervising their table games as they've used in tracking down Ivey's Nevada assets...then this "cheating" incident would have never taken place.
__________________
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07-21-2019, 09:45 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
If Borgata used as much diligence in supervising their table games as they've used in tracking down Ivey's Nevada assets...then this "cheating" incident would have never taken place.
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But it does seem Borgata has doubled the amount Ivey owes them, with penalty interest and collection fees.
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07-21-2019, 11:59 PM
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#21
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tmrpots
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davew
But it does seem Borgata has doubled the amount Ivey owes them, with penalty interest and collection fees.
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It's a typo.
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07-23-2019, 12:22 AM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barn32
It's a typo.
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it is on a legal document
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07-23-2019, 03:57 AM
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#23
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tmrpots
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davew
it is on a legal document
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Quote:
Whether the four-month delay was intentional or due to a procedural oversight isn’t clear. And, even though the writ of execution was approved, it may still contain an error that currently shows the Borgata eligible to pursue a total sum of more than $20 million, due to the base judgment amount being accounted for twice. As the shown images illustrate, the Borgata appears to have listed an extra $214,518 in accrued interest, for a $10,344,518 total. However, that total was entered (perhaps erroneously) in a line entry denoted “ACCRUED INTERESTS, COSTS AND FEES” to which the original $10.13 million judgment was re-added an approved by the Nevada court clerk for a total of $20,474,992.12.
It seems likely that this filing may be revised at a later date, unless the Borgata is indeed claiming accrued costs and fees already matching the initial judgment. Given the years of lawyer fees likely undertaken by Klausner’s law firm, this can’t be ruled out.
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Full Story
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08-09-2019, 05:26 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
If Borgata used as much diligence in supervising their table games as they've used in tracking down Ivey's Nevada assets...then this "cheating" incident would have never taken place.
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Ivey is a completely unsympathetic figure. This guy has boatloads of money and can pay the judgment. Instead, he's letting the Borg run up collection costs, which he's gonna end up paying anyway (unless he just wants to move out of the US and never come back).
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08-20-2019, 01:44 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,602
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I used to hold the position that Phil got screwed, but upon reading the details, I've changed my mind. I mistakenly thought he could see flaws in certain cards and just remember the patterns. When you are purposely tricking the dealer into rearranging the direction of some of the cards so you can see the high and low cards, you are basically hustling. That's an entirely different thing. I can see how someone could still be on Ivey's side, but I'm not buying it. It's kind of like looking at someone's hole cards because they aren't sharp enough to cover them well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_sorting
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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08-22-2019, 11:35 AM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
Ivey is a completely unsympathetic figure. This guy has boatloads of money and can pay the judgment. Instead, he's letting the Borg run up collection costs, which he's gonna end up paying anyway (unless he just wants to move out of the US and never come back).
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Ivey is a "completely unsympathetic figure"...and the Borgata is NOT? There is no way I would ever side with a casino in a case such as this. IMO...the casino should have suspected something the second they heard Ivey's suspicious-sounding dealing demands. The saying "a fool and his money are soon parted" works BOTH ways...as far as I am concerned.
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08-22-2019, 11:59 AM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
I used to hold the position that Phil got screwed, but upon reading the details, I've changed my mind. I mistakenly thought he could see flaws in certain cards and just remember the patterns. When you are purposely tricking the dealer into rearranging the direction of some of the cards so you can see the high and low cards, you are basically hustling. That's an entirely different thing. I can see how someone could still be on Ivey's side, but I'm not buying it. It's kind of like looking at someone's hole cards because they aren't sharp enough to cover them well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_sorting
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When the casino keeps serving alcohol to clearly inebriated gamblers in the hope that they'll be even more reckless with their money than they'd otherwise be...is that an "honorable" practice? Does the casino care about the player's finances in those cases? Why does the house get away with unscrupulous behavior...when the player can't?
The truth is that Ivey asked for permission ahead of time, and he never touched the cards...nor did he conspire with a casino employee -- or the card manufacturer -- to defraud the casino. If the casino game is exploitable under such circumstances...then that's the HOUSE'S fault. The casinos like to say that they are the "butchers"...and their customers are the "lambs". And now we are supposed to feel sorry for the BUTCHERS?
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Last edited by thaskalos; 08-22-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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08-22-2019, 12:34 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,733
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i went into the brand new Encore Hotel in Boston 2 weeks ago. the blackjack tables paid 6/5 on 21 and the dealer hit on soft 17. then the table limit was minimum bet $50, maximum bet $1000.
the ATM machine charged $6.95 to get $500 out of it. if you wanted $1000 they treated it as a cash advance from your debit card and charged you $22.50.
i sat down at the $20-$40 game, when a half hour was up they were looking for $10 to pay for time. i got up after my $300 loss and went home, maybe i will return next century.
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08-22-2019, 01:02 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy
i went into the brand new Encore Hotel in Boston 2 weeks ago. the blackjack tables paid 6/5 on 21 and the dealer hit on soft 17. then the table limit was minimum bet $50, maximum bet $1000.
the ATM machine charged $6.95 to get $500 out of it. if you wanted $1000 they treated it as a cash advance from your debit card and charged you $22.50.
i sat down at the $20-$40 game, when a half hour was up they were looking for $10 to pay for time. i got up after my $300 loss and went home, maybe i will return next century.
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I approached the roulette wheel at the Venetian in Las Vegas the other day...and, feigning ignorance...I asked the croupier if that was a 3rd zero on the roulette layout. "Yes", he sheepishly said to me. "But we now have the 3 zeros next to each other on the wheel...to make the zero a less likely outcome for the bettor".
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Live to play another day.
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08-22-2019, 02:01 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
When the casino keeps serving alcohol to clearly inebriated gamblers in the hope that they'll be even more reckless with their money than they'd otherwise be...is that an "honorable" practice? Does the casino care about the player's finances in those cases? Why does the house get away with unscrupulous behavior...when the player can't?
The truth is that Ivey asked for permission ahead of time, and he never touched the cards...nor did he conspire with a casino employee -- or the card manufacturer -- to defraud the casino. If the casino game is exploitable under such circumstances...then that's the HOUSE'S fault. The casinos like to say that they are the "butchers"...and their customers are the "lambs". And now we are supposed to feel sorry for the BUTCHERS?
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1. Encouraging alcohol is not honorable.
2. I disagree.
Let's say I'm playing poker with some of the boys and one of the guys has a tendency to not cover his hole cards well. I didn't encourage it. I didn't use mirrors. I didn't touch the cards etc.. It's his fault. It's not mine.
The "honorable" thing to do would be to tell him.
I could also do nothing and catch a peak and advantage once in awhile. That's not so honorable. I'd called it passive cheating, but cheating nonetheless.
But I'd be a scumbag if I purposely tried to get him to shift his seat slightly so I could see them more often. That's basically what Ivey did. He actively tried to get the house to give him an advantage that is not part of the intent of the game. And if someone did that in my poker game, they'd be banned permanently. In some games, they'd be lucky to get out alive.
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"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
Last edited by classhandicapper; 08-22-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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