****BREEDERS' CUP LIVE THREAD****

[Tom]

..and his "greatness" vanished as quickly as it had appeared.

Vanished almost as fast as GUN RUNNER did the Dubai stretch, when Arrogate "mooned" him.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by bisket

Anyone ready to anoint Gun Runner world’s best has to take into consideration Collected ran step for step with him. I’m wondering if the tractors circled the track a few times during the turf race. If not they both freaked.

Collected is damned good. His last several races have all been extremely good. This isn't Macho Again or something.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Tom

Horse of 6 months.
AFTER Arrogate humiliated him and went on vacation.
GR is a worthy second place finisher. But He did NOT win the two biggest races.

So what if he won the two with the biggest purse? Which had the better field? DWC, Pegasus, or BCC? I think all would agree that it was the BCC.

Gun Runner ran in 6 races this year, winning 5 and finishing 2nd in the 6th. He won 4 G1s, 1 G3, and finished 2nd in a G1.

Arrogate ran in 5 races this year, winning 2 and finishing 2nd, 4th, and 5th in the other three. He won 2 G1s, finished 2nd in another G1, and finished off the board in the other two.

Looking at their bodies of work, I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that Arrogate's 2 wins trumps Gun Runner's 5, and if you take into account the rest of their race finishes, Gun Runner pulls even further ahead.

[Tom]

Agree, the Dubai race was a weak field.
Arrogate ran by the leader in stretch so fast, they thought the horse broke down.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

So what if he won the two with the biggest purse? Which had the better field? DWC, Pegasus, or BCC? I think all would agree that it was the BCC.

Gun Runner ran in 6 races this year, winning 5 and finishing 2nd in the 6th. He won 4 G1s, 1 G3, and finished 2nd in a G1.

Arrogate ran in 5 races this year, winning 2 and finishing 2nd, 4th, and 5th in the other three. He won 2 G1s, finished 2nd in another G1, and finished off the board in the other two.

Looking at their bodies of work, I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that Arrogate's 2 wins trumps Gun Runner's 5, and if you take into account the rest of their race finishes, Gun Runner pulls even further ahead.

Yep.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Tom

Vanished almost as fast as GUN RUNNER did the Dubai stretch, when Arrogate "mooned" him.

Arrogate won the battle...but Gun Runner won the war.

[Tom]

No one is going to be talking about GR in the same terms as Arrogate.

It really doesn't matter - the eclipse awards a total joke anyways. They mean nothing the horseplayers, and are just more of the BS the hoity toity do for themselves. Has nothing to do with betting horses.

Just fun to argue.
They can take those awards and stick them all where the bute don't go.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

The saddest thing of all is that a horse like Arrogate will never be Horse of the Year. At one point, regarded as one of the best...horses....ever....

Robbed in 2016 of HOTY...and doesn't deserve it this year...

Oh Boy, Here we go again. Arrogate was robbed of Horse of the Year in 2016.
No, he wasn't.

California Chrome won seven out of eight races that year. He won three out of four Grade 1 races, all of them unrestricted.

Arrogate only ran in two stakes races in 2016. Bot of which were Grade 1 races and both of which he won. However, one of those Grade 1 races was restricted to 3 year olds; in a year when the three year old crop was not particularly strong over all.

Arrogate did beat California Chrome in the Breeders Cup Classic by half a length, but Horse Of The Year is not based on one race unless the candidates are evenly matched going into that race. Prior to the BCC California Chrome had won five unrestricted Grade One and Grade Two stakes in 2016. Arrogate had won one. Even if you include the Travers Stakes, the margin was still 5-2.

It's not like the voting was close. CC received 202 first place votes. Arrogate had only 40. Again, a 5-1 margin.

Arrogate had a brilliant four or five race streak. Other than that he was pretty ordinary.

[olddaddy]

This Arrogate stuff made no sense. Run its last 3 races at a track that supposedly he doesnt like. If that was the case why would you keep running him there knowing his value decreases each time? If you know hes done you retire him, if it was the track you dont run him there and you run him elsewhere to prove it actually was the track. I dont get how and why it was handled how it was.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Oh Boy, Here we go again. Arrogate was robbed of Horse of the Year in 2016.
No, he wasn't.

California Chrome won seven out of eight races that year. He won three out of four Grade 1 races, all of them unrestricted.

Arrogate only ran in two stakes races in 2016. Bot of which were Grade 1 races and both of which he won. However, one of those Grade 1 races was restricted to 3 year olds; in a year when the three year old crop was not particularly strong over all.

Arrogate did beat California Chrome in the Breeders Cup Classic by half a length, but Horse Of The Year is not based on one race unless the candidates are evenly matched going into that race. Prior to the BCC California Chrome had won five unrestricted Grade One and Grade Two stakes in 2016. Arrogate had won one. Even if you include the Travers Stakes, the margin was still 5-2.

It's not like the voting was close. CC received 202 first place votes. Arrogate had only 40. Again, a 5-1 margin.

Arrogate had a brilliant four or five race streak. Other than that he was pretty ordinary.

This is why greatness isnt determined by just four or five races. We ultimately rightfully conclude that it was just a short brilliant streak. We'll never know why he was so brilliant but for such a short time. That is not normal and there is an explanation somewhere. Like it or not, his trainer is one that we know will mess around with concocting brews, as evidenced by giving horses thyroid medicine and having seven drop dead and in a short period of time.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by olddaddy

This Arrogate stuff made no sense. Run its last 3 races at a track that supposedly he doesnt like. If that was the case why would you keep running him there knowing his value decreases each time? If you know hes done you retire him, if it was the track you dont run him there and you run him elsewhere to prove it actually was the track. I dont get how and why it was handled how it was.

Agreed. If Baffert really thought it was the track, then it made sense to instead of going to the Breeders' Cup, go east for the Woodward and/or Jockey Club Gold cup, win big again and retire

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Agreed. If Baffert really thought it was the track, then it made sense to instead of going to the Breeders' Cup, go east for the Woodward and/or Jockey Club Gold cup, win big again and retire

The Pegasus would have made even more sense.

But he isn't the same horse.