Is it Possible?

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

I can understand this. When you're playing nine ball and can control the cue ball you're invincible.



It's because the better players always knows there is always someone better.

Too bad more horseplayers don't grasp this truth of your second sentence.

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by raybo

Some seem to be beating a dead horse here, regarding formal "credentials". There are several successful players here, none of which, to my knowledge have a degree in horse playing. The positive affect Sartin had on this game is unequivocal, IMO, whether or not he was formally trained and credentialed is neither here nor there. Of course there are "Sartinists" and there are Sartin haters, so it's like much of the other stuff discussed here, and other places, just a bunch of chest beating.

I agree with you that the 'psychologist' thing is a red herring, and has nothing to do with the validity of pace handicapping. It was strictly a response to that section of this thread.

As has been said here, Sartin was smart of enough to recognize the validity and contrarian power of pace handicapping, which he acknowledged was not his discovery, and certainly became its most skilled and successful promoter. But he was also something of a charlatan, who made a nice living from inflating the financial potential of pace handicapping (sucking in people like Patrick) with material that, while containing nuggets of value, was invariably confusing, contradictory, and vague. The phrase 'Rube Goldberg' comes to mind.

I had a number of very entertaining conversations with the late Guy Wadsorth, who for many years wrote Sartin's software, about Sartin's vehement insistence on using vaguely technical and academic language to repackage the same material he had already been selling to make it sound more impressive and thus, sell better. 'Fractals' and 'Chaos' were two that come mind - words to whose meaning he had no clue. His need to inflate, to hype, to oversell was innate.

It's worth comparing Sartin to other influential figures - Beyer, Davidovich, Quinn (who initially promoted Sartin), Meadow, Ainslie, etc.. All provided valuable information for the price of a book, without any of the attendant hype, and AFAIK, three were (and possibly are still) pro horseplayers. The difference illustrates my point.

Cheers,

lansdale

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I never met any of the guys being discussed in this thread and haven't followed up on where they are now. Are any of them still alive and actively playing?

Since we've been discussing the myths and realities of the Sartin group, I think everyone is aware the Tom Brohamer and Dick Schmidt (who used to post here more often) were serious pro players for a number of years. Mike Piazza also has obviously done well. Maybe some here know of others from the original Sartin group who made a living from the game.

I think many know that Tom Hambleton, co-author of 'Pace Makes the Race' died a few years back. I heard a couple of years ago that Tom Brohamer (a terrific human being, and always very helpful) was seriously ill. He had stopped playing some years ago, as the wager value of pace handicapping declined, and taken up golf. Dick Mitchell, who died a few years ago, had given up playing (possibly for the same reason as Brohamer) and returned to his native Arizona to teach math, which was his profession. Dick Schmidt has mentioned here that he has left handicapping, after seventeen years as a professional, and is now a currency trader. Mike Pizzola is living in Vegas, and AFAIK still selling software and playing the horses. Would be grateful for any corrections or additions.

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by barn32

I can't speak for Sartin, but what I know of Jim is that he did bet, but I don't think he was a "big" bettor. Jim was a master win bettor and there are many documented accounts of him doing live seminars and winning every race, 9 out of ten, 8 out of ten races, etc. But the bane of his existence was the exacta.

Tom Brohamer also bet, and probably more than Jim.

But the guy who really sent it in was Dick Mitchell--race after race. I was with him at Del Mar one day and he was sending it in every race. He would just look at his computer printouts and head to the windows. After losing one particular race when some big longshots came in, he just looked at me and said, "wrong longshots."

Jim Bradshaw (hoping he is still with us) is a wonderful human being, and a great teacher, but he was, by his own admission, not a serious bettor.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by lansdale

Jim Bradshaw (hoping he is still with us) is a wonderful human being, and a great teacher, but he was, by his own admission, not a serious bettor.

Gone. April 2008

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by traynor

The best winning player (as in "most highly skilled") I ever encountered was Lyle Stuart--who routinely bet $2K a hand in very fast moving baccarat games (none of that silly "peek at the card" nonsense they have in Macau), often doubling and often playing multiple hands. Moving $100K an hour across the table forth and back was considered a slow game.

Stuart certainly was a wealthy man, and an enthusiastic gambler and publisher of gambling books, but he was not a skilled gambler. Most of his wealth derived from activities of dubious legality, to put it mildly. Those looking for instruction on any gambling game would be well advised to ignore his books.

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Gone. April 2008

I had a number of very pleasant conversations with Jim, 'The Hat' and heard many wonderful stories about him. Not just a good man, but a wise man. Very sorry to hear of his death.

Thanks.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by lansdale

I think the point Thaskalos (and he can correct me, if it's not so) is trying to make is the extreme difficulty of becoming a pro horseplayer, when it's tough enough even with 'easier' games like poker and blackjack. The examples you cite prove his point. Although these players may have some skill, neither is capable of betting enough often enough to be able to consider it their profession. And, as an aside, most players who make their living with a cuestick are really hustlers, essentially conmen, like Fast Eddie.

Another important point Thask often makes, and I think a subtle and important one that most people miss, is that even very good horseplayers, those who probably think they're playing with an edge, usually aren't. And the reason, I think he brings up the issue of money, is not to divert from handicapping skill, but to emphasize that, unless people are betting amounts that are significant to them, amounts close to their pain threshhold (whatever that may be), they're probably not paying close to attention to exactly how much they're winning and losing. Thus, it's easy to ignore losses and remember wins, which is the default setting of the average horseplayer.

BTW, guessing (or betting?) that I've seen 'The Hustler' more times than you ;-). One of the guys who breaks Newman's thumbs in the 'freeze-out' scene was a friend of my father's.

Cheers,

lansdale

Hi, lansdale...

It warms my heart to see that you actually read my postings.

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Hi, lansdale...

It warms my heart to see that you actually read my postings.

Hi Thask,

Anyone who wants to absorb some heady thinking about games of chance should be reading all your posts. I know I try to.

Best,

lansdale

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by lansdale

Hi Thask,

Anyone who wants to absorb some heady thinking about games of chance should be reading all your posts. I know I try to.

Best,

lansdale

Thask is perhaps the best, kindest and deepest of thinkers on this message board.
His opinions stand out on most subjects that he opines on.
(Not pretending to agree at all with some of with his opinions. But his posts have class, substance, and honesty dispayed with tact.)

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Thask is perhaps the best, kindest and deepest of thinkers on this message board.
His opinions stand out on most subjects that he opines on.
(Not pretending to agree at all with some of with his opinions. But his posts have class, substance, and honesty dispayed with tact.)

No doubt. One of the best here at PA, if not THE best.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by lansdale

BTW, guessing (or betting?) that I've seen 'The Hustler' more times than you ;-). One of the guys who breaks Newman's thumbs in the 'freeze-out' scene was a friend of my father's.

Cheers,

lansdale

That would be an interesting bet given that I've loved pool and played it seriously in my teens and then again in my 30s. I'm 55 now. My cousin played on the women's pro tour years ago. All time great movie even if you have no real interest in pool.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That would be an interesting bet given that I've loved pool and played it seriously in my teens and then again in my 30s. I'm 55 now. My cousin played on the women's pro tour years ago. All time great movie even if you have no real interest in pool.

Sounds like me, started playing seriously in HS, continued while in the AF, and helped support myself when I left the AF, before I found a civilian job. Still play the weekly tournaments at the VFW.

I never miss "The Hustler" when it comes on cable. Jackie Gleason became one of my heroes after I learned that he shot all the trick shots in that movie.

[pktruckdriver]

Thaskalos I loved your advice back then and it really made me re-think alot of things in ones life. I never did go after my dream of being only a Horse Player , solely surviving on my winnings and such. It was solid advice and am I now ready to start my dream again, no absolutely not!

I been through the wringer as so many of us have, all with our own little issue's in life, some tougher than others, but to us our problems were the most important of all. I am still loving the idea of being a successful Horse Player, maybe a becoming a World Series Champion to make me resume look good, but dreams they may need to remain for a little bit longer, 1yr -25yrs , who knows for sure.

I did fiddle with Horse Ownership in a few partnerships, even had a winner or two, almost had a stakes winner, was too slow on the draw, but the experience was really pretty cool, and having great people involved made that much more enjoyable. I may do this again, and maybe 1 day be able to stand in the Winners Circle at Saratoga 1 fine Summer Afternoon.

I met alot of friends through Mike's site here and during my travels around this country, and was forever greatful when this site got together to help me in a time of need, I will never forget that, how could I. Thank you all for what you did then, I was truly honored and moved.

I see so many of the same names still here 10yrs later, I really miss this part of my life, one day soon I may begin again as a hobby, we'll see.

In Closing For now, I could still use a little help to hit my Kentucky Derby Superfecta wager, that has eluded me all these years, so far! I will actually be in Louisville this coming week at The MATS Truckshow, always up for a stop by the Twin Spires, a a little reminiscing, not that I would ever wish to be there on Derby Day, too wild and crazy for me, unless my horse was running..lol Keep Dreaming

He is good wishes to all of you
Patrick Kane

[Tom]

Hello Patrick!
Good to hear from you.

Good luck to you.