Cigar Mile

[Profesor]

Originally Posted by azeri98

Just an observation, You don't have to be an a hole about it.

He must like you usually he is more rude than that.

[BarchCapper]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Seemingly by your standards the last good race was the 1957 Trenton Handicap at Garden State.

Well, even BY MY STANDARDS was only a Grade II winner, never getting over that Grade I hump.

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Racing nationally has been on a decline for several years now. You could probably pick apart every individual Grade 1 race over the years and find a few duds.

That said, the 2014 Cigar Mile was not one of them; Private Zone, Secret Circle, Itsmyluckyday, Regally Ready, Vyjack.

Seemingly by your standards the last good race was the 1957 Trenton Handicap at Garden State.

Ok I made a mistake on one year but not the rest. You yourself said that this race routinely had good fields. That's not the case. Since 2015 they have had more subpar fields than good ones. You were right that there were 4 Grade 1 winners in the field but not all Grade 1's are equal especially the Derby prep races. You have the Florida Derby, Arkansas Derby, Santa Anita Derby and Bluegrass all within 3 weeks of each other for 3 year olds going the same distance. Throw in the Wood and Louisiana Derby both Grade 2's, you have 6 watered down races with trainers trying to finish 3rd or 4th to get a lottery ticket to get into the Derby like Rich Strike did. The Travers and Bluegrass are both Grade 1's. Do you value them the same?

[Tom]

So if theymade the Cigar a G3 you would be happy?
How would it have affected your bet if it was?

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by azeri98

Ok I made a mistake on one year but not the rest.

Don't be so sure.

You yourself said that this race routinely had good fields. That's not the case.

According to Roget, 'routinely' is not a synonym of 'always'...

Since 2015 they have had more subpar fields than good ones.

The Cigar Mile is over 30 years old. You're now setting goal posts that were not there before I started posting. In fact, you never mentioned any of these other "subpar" fields when you recommended the race be moved on the calendar.

By the way, the 2015 Cigar Mile had classic winner & 4x Grade 1 winner Tonalist as well as 5x Grade 1 winner/5x Grade 1-placed Private Zone and multiple G1 winner Mshawish in a short field, so even your backpedaled "since 2015" is a no-go for me.

You were right that there were 4 Grade 1 winners in the field but not all Grade 1's are equal especially the Derby prep races.

I understand all that. But let's put it all out there:

Zandon with one Grade 1 win, three Grade 1 placings, and having defeated classic winner Mo Donegal 2x, MG1 winner Taiba, MG1 winner Cyberknife, G1/MGS winner Classic Causeway, MGSW Tawny Port, MGSW/G1p Tiz the Bomb, GSW/G1p Charge It, GSW/G1p placed Smile Happy, GSW/G1p Simplification, , MGSW Messier, is not a good enough horse for the Cigar Mile.

White Abarrio with one Grade 1 win, a GSW, one Grade 1 placing, and having defeated classic winner Mo Donegal, MG1 winner Cyberknife, G1/MGS winner Classic Causeway, MGSW/G1p Tiz the Bomb, GSW/G1p Charge It, GSW/G1p Simplification, G1p Giant Game, is not good enough for the Cigar Mile.

Mind Control with a Grade 1 win at 2, a Grade 1 win at 3, a Grade 1 win at 6, and MGSW/G1p in-between, and having defeated champion Knicks Go, champion Whitmore, G1/classic-placed Hot Rod Charlie, MG1 winner Firenze Fire, G1/G2 winner Silver State, G1/MGSW Shirl's Speight, G1/G2 winner Complexity, G1 winner Mischevious Alex, G1 winner Lexitonian; G2/G1p Shancelot, MGSW/G1p American Anthem, MGSW/G1p First Captain, MGSW Warrior's Charge, GSW/G1p Green Light Go, is not good enough for the Cigar Mile.

Get Her Number with a Grade 1 win, two Grade 1 placings, and having defeated G1/classic-placed Hot Rod Charlie, classic winner Rombauer 2x, G1/MGSW Drain the Clock, MGSW/MG1p C Z Rocket, MGSW Brickyard Ride, G2/G1p Ginobili, MGSW Forbidden Kingdom, G2/MG1p Spielberg, G2 None Above the Law, G2 Howbeit, is not good enough for the Cigar Mile.

The hilarious part of all this is even if the race was run as you suggested as a "prep" for the BC Dirt Mile (a surefire way to get the race downgraded); it would have likely drawn a similar field.

By the way, the 2 logical horses that you had listed as missing from the race (Cody's Wish & Elite Power) were both still maidens when each of the horses above were making graded stakes starts...and that's despite both being older horses.

That's an indictment of the quality of the entire racing racing population in general, not the position of the Cigar Mile on the racing calendar.

In fact, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that the Cigar Mile was the only open race this year outside the BC and probably the Whitney to feature more than 3 Grade 1 (azeri98-approved or otherwise) winners in the field...

You have the Florida Derby, Arkansas Derby, Santa Anita Derby and Bluegrass all within 3 weeks of each other for 3 year olds going the same distance. Throw in the Wood and Louisiana Derby both Grade 2's, you have 6 watered down races with trainers trying to finish 3rd or 4th to get a lottery ticket to get into the Derby like Rich Strike did. The Travers and Bluegrass are both Grade 1's. Do you value them the same?

Again, I get it. You think 3yo Grade 1s don't count.

I suggest when they refashion the Cigar Mile to a BC Undercard Mile prep they should make it restricted to '4yos & up' to protect the quality of the race...

[Gamblin4ever]

Horse racing needs to change the criteria on grading races. Not all graded stakes are equal , but carry same grading. Listed stakes are minimum 75K. There are claiming and alw races valued higher than that. I'm not sure of the solution, but as an example - Grade 1races should be minimum 1,000,000 purse, Grade 2 valued 700k - 999k, Grade 3 valued 400k - 699k, Listed 150k - 399k..etc. Right now trainers can cherry pick graded stakes to get graded wins on horses for breeding purposes. Make trainers go against the better horses to get the grades. Just my opinion.

[classhandicapper]

At one time the Graded Race Committee published the criteria they use(d) to determine a race Grade. It was pretty comprehensive and IMO a fairly good way to determine the strength of any particular field relative to “average”.

One problem is as racing changes so does the average strength of certain races, but you can’t always tell off just a few years whether a change you are seeing in either direction is random or representative of a more permanent change that requires a Grade change.

The purses do a fairly good job of separating strength by Grade. Higher purse Grade 1s will average higher Beyer figures than lower purse ones and so on down the line, but any one race could be much different than average.

The races for younger horses are understood to be weaker and you can usually tell by how much by using the Beyer Pars at various times of the year or by looking at the makeup up of the fields and accomplishments of the horses to date.

I keep the average winning Beyer for every Graded stake in NA individually and non graded stakes by track, age, sex, surface. I’m also have automated strength ratings that look at prior performances in non figure terms.

Personally, I thought this edition of the Cigar was weak, but all my data (both figure and accomplishments) suggests it’s still a solid Grade 1 on average.

[the little guy]

Eight days before the Grade 1 Cigar, Churchill hosted the Grade 1 Clark. That race drew a field of six with exactly one Grade 1 winner, while only two of the others had ever even run in a Grade 1 race. I am not knocking the race, with all the retirements and injuries, this is a trying year for major late season races. However, what I do find interesting is that nobody seemed to notice this race, while at least one person is trashing a race that came up significantly stronger.

[Gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Eight days before the Grade 1 Cigar, Churchill hosted the Grade 1 Clark. That race drew a field of six with exactly one Grade 1 winner, while only two of the others had ever even run in a Grade 1 race. I am not knocking the race, with all the retirements and injuries, this is a trying year for major late season races. However, what I do find interesting is that nobody seemed to notice this race, while at least one person is trashing a race that came up significantly stronger.

I'm not trashing the Cigar ( much better race than the Clark overall, not just this year), but this is the problem with racing. The Clark should NOT be a grade 1 at all. Too many G1s for trainers and owners. Proxy is not a G1 horse neither is Rich Strike, but now both are G1 winners - laughable somtimes.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by Gamblin4ever

I'm not trashing the Cigar ( much better race than the Clark overall, not just this year), but this is the problem with racing. The Clark should NOT be a grade 1 at all. Too many G1s for trainers and owners. Proxy is not a G1 horse neither is Rich Strike, but now both are G1 winners - laughable somtimes.

Winning THEE Grade 1. The Kentucky Derby makes ANY winner of that race a Grade 1 horse. JOMHO

[rastajenk]

No kidding. Embarrassing it needs to be pointed out.

[classhandicapper]

IMO the Clark should probably be a Grade 2 unless it starts turning around soon. It hasn’t been particularly strong in recent years.

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Eight days before the Grade 1 Cigar, Churchill hosted the Grade 1 Clark. That race drew a field of six with exactly one Grade 1 winner, while only two of the others had ever even run in a Grade 1 race. I am not knocking the race, with all the retirements and injuries, this is a trying year for major late season races. However, what I do find interesting is that nobody seemed to notice this race, while at least one person is trashing a race that came up significantly stronger.

Nobody posted about the Clark. That shouldn't be a grade 1 race. it's field was worse than the Cigar Mile.

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Don't be so sure.


According to Roget, 'routinely' is not a synonym of 'always'...


The Cigar Mile is over 30 years old. You're now setting goal posts that were not there before I started posting. In fact, you never mentioned any of these other "subpar" fields when you recommended the race be moved on the calendar.

By the way, the 2015 Cigar Mile had classic winner & 4x Grade 1 winner Tonalist as well as 5x Grade 1 winner/5x Grade 1-placed Private Zone and multiple G1 winner Mshawish in a short field, so even your backpedaled "since 2015" is a no-go for me.


I understand all that. But let's put it all out there:

Zandon with one Grade 1 win, three Grade 1 placings, and having defeated classic winner Mo Donegal 2x, MG1 winner Taiba, MG1 winner Cyberknife, G1/MGS winner Classic Causeway, MGSW Tawny Port, MGSW/G1p Tiz the Bomb, GSW/G1p Charge It, GSW/G1p placed Smile Happy, GSW/G1p Simplification, , MGSW Messier, is not a good enough horse for the Cigar Mile.

White Abarrio with one Grade 1 win, a GSW, one Grade 1 placing, and having defeated classic winner Mo Donegal, MG1 winner Cyberknife, G1/MGS winner Classic Causeway, MGSW/G1p Tiz the Bomb, GSW/G1p Charge It, GSW/G1p Simplification, G1p Giant Game, is not good enough for the Cigar Mile.

Mind Control with a Grade 1 win at 2, a Grade 1 win at 3, a Grade 1 win at 6, and MGSW/G1p in-between, and having defeated champion Knicks Go, champion Whitmore, G1/classic-placed Hot Rod Charlie, MG1 winner Firenze Fire, G1/G2 winner Silver State, G1/MGSW Shirl's Speight, G1/G2 winner Complexity, G1 winner Mischevious Alex, G1 winner Lexitonian; G2/G1p Shancelot, MGSW/G1p American Anthem, MGSW/G1p First Captain, MGSW Warrior's Charge, GSW/G1p Green Light Go, is not good enough for the Cigar Mile.

Get Her Number with a Grade 1 win, two Grade 1 placings, and having defeated G1/classic-placed Hot Rod Charlie, classic winner Rombauer 2x, G1/MGSW Drain the Clock, MGSW/MG1p C Z Rocket, MGSW Brickyard Ride, G2/G1p Ginobili, MGSW Forbidden Kingdom, G2/MG1p Spielberg, G2 None Above the Law, G2 Howbeit, is not good enough for the Cigar Mile.

The hilarious part of all this is even if the race was run as you suggested as a "prep" for the BC Dirt Mile (a surefire way to get the race downgraded); it would have likely drawn a similar field.

By the way, the 2 logical horses that you had listed as missing from the race (Cody's Wish & Elite Power) were both still maidens when each of the horses above were making graded stakes starts...and that's despite both being older horses.

That's an indictment of the quality of the entire racing racing population in general, not the position of the Cigar Mile on the racing calendar.

In fact, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that the Cigar Mile was the only open race this year outside the BC and probably the Whitney to feature more than 3 Grade 1 (azeri98-approved or otherwise) winners in the field...


Again, I get it. You think 3yo Grade 1s don't count.

I suggest when they refashion the Cigar Mile to a BC Undercard Mile prep they should make it restricted to '4yos & up' to protect the quality of the race...

I didn't say that all 3 year old races don't count. I don't think the preps should be Grade 1's There are too many of them in a short period of time that they are watered down. Zandon didn't beat anybody in the Bluegrass. You also said he beat Mo Donegal, Cyberknife and Taiba but he also lost to them and they actually won races in better fields than Zandon's maiden win or Bluegrass win. Same goes for White Abbario. Not sure what your point is about Cody's Wish and Elite Power are. Cody's Wish went 6 for 7 this year with 2 Grade 1's and a Grade 3 and broke his maiden last year. Elite Power went 5 for 6 and won a Grade 2 and Grade 1. The Pacific Classic had 3 Grade 1 winners Maker's Mark Mile had 4 Grade 1 winners. The Met Mile had 4 Grade 1 winners. There could be more

[classhandicapper]

This describes the information, timeframe, and formal process they use to assign Grades.

https://toba.org/graded-stakes/