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06-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
I believe the P5 should be 50 cents in Ca. On a daily average basis handle would go up significantly.
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Did you mean pick 6?
The pick 5 minimum already is at 50 cents in California.
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06-07-2017, 01:38 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 15,118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro
He's throwing stuff out there. It keeps certain people (TOC) off balance. This is the last best hope for meaningful change IMO. I'm gonna do all I can to support him.
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Right with you on this. Look at Gulfstreams Rainbow 6. Following its carryover, it might take longer to build but gets big. But the best thing is if the track wants the carryover, they have to increase field size to achieve that...
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06-07-2017, 01:40 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Mercedes doesn't have to do anything if their business is profitable.
Is that the case with Santa Anita?
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Are you suggesting that alienating lifelong P-6 players by changing to a 10 cent minimum is going to change Santa Anita into a thriving profitable racetrack? Trying to be all things to all bettors is a losing business model. Mercedes knows their market and they serve it well.
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06-07-2017, 01:45 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,985
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Why dont they just have 2 pick sixes? Races 2 to 7, 20 cent minimum (no jackpot pleeeeeeeeease). Races 3 to 8, the current $2 minimum(to preserve carryovers). Small players can play the 20 cent one and those who want to play the $2 minimum can do so. Start on races 3 and 4 if they have 9 races cards. I see no reason why they can't do both (at least on the Saturday and Sunday cards).
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06-07-2017, 01:50 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poindexter
Why dont they just have 2 pick sixes? Races 2 to 7, 20 cent minimum (no jackpot pleeeeeeeeease). Races 3 to 8, the current $2 minimum(to preserve carryovers). Small players can play the 20 cent one and those who want to play the $2 minimum can do so. Start on races 3 and 4 if they have 9 races cards. I see no reason why they can't do both (at least on the Saturday and Sunday cards).
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Way too much pool cannibalization.
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06-07-2017, 01:55 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elhelmete
Way too much pool cannibalization.
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Absolutely, plus it ties up too much betting capital for too many races.
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06-07-2017, 01:56 PM
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#22
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC
Most serious P-6 players don't just play 1 ticket so I am not sure how a track could disseminate accurate information regarding the number of combinations played.
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On many days, the pick 6 has few winning tickets and really it is the days that the wager pays over 25k that interests me....it would be fairly easy for the track to show the number of combinations included on winning tickets....just show the tickets with the highest number of combinations, and indicate if the winning combination was included on the ticket.
Are the larger pick 6's routinely won with tickets that show 1000 distinct combinations or more...? Such tickets cost $2000 and more...I would speculate that sharks and whales have figured out how to take down the lion's share of seasonal pick 6's using large combination tickets and absorbing short term losses in process...of course without knowing the ticket structures that routinely take down the pools, its all just speculation.... So in the interests of transparency, while the industry says that it is trying to improve its image as being on the up and up, this would go a long way in demonstrating to the public just how these giant pools are won....
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06-07-2017, 02:34 PM
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey
....it would be fairly easy for the track to show the number of combinations included on winning tickets....just show the tickets with the highest number of combinations, and indicate if the winning combination was included on the ticket........
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Why would it matter if the winning combination was on a $216 ticket when the total amount played by the bettor was $7,000?
If you are serious about playing the P-6, handicap the races each day and put together want-to-bet P-6 tickets utilizing an unlimited bankroll. See if you can be successful betting large amounts. It is a myth to believe that it is only the lack of bankroll that prevents most bettors from being successful P-6 players. Hence the call for 10 cent betting.
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06-07-2017, 03:06 PM
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#24
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC
Why would it matter if the winning combination was on a $216 ticket when the total amount played by the bettor was $7,000?
If you are serious about playing the P-6, handicap the races each day and put together want-to-bet P-6 tickets utilizing an unlimited bankroll. See if you can be successful betting large amounts. It is a myth to believe that it is only the lack of bankroll that prevents most bettors from being successful P-6 players. Hence the call for 10 cent betting.
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You make important points here and my perception has been altered by them, thank you...lower buy ins might just mean the triumph of gross mediocrity over handicapping skill...I wouldn't want that...but then again, higher bankrolls have the same impact...
Last edited by VigorsTheGrey; 06-07-2017 at 03:15 PM.
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06-07-2017, 03:07 PM
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#25
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Todd Bowker
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 152
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Just so everyone is clear here. Fractional wagering is not lowering the minimum base value of a wager.
Fractional wagering is a customer developing their ticket and saying "I want this bet for (x) dollars". Then the tote determines the % of the winning dollars that bet would collect if it's a winner.
In the earlier example of a P6 with 2 horses in each leg, instead of paying $128, a customer could bring that bet to a window and say "I want this for $32" and would collect 25% of the $2 price.
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06-07-2017, 03:16 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbowker
Just so everyone is clear here. Fractional wagering is not lowering the minimum base value of a wager.
Fractional wagering is a customer developing their ticket and saying "I want this bet for (x) dollars". Then the tote determines the % of the winning dollars that bet would collect if it's a winner.
In the earlier example of a P6 with 2 horses in each leg, instead of paying $128, a customer could bring that bet to a window and say "I want this for $32" and would collect 25% of the $2 price.
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How is this different? If it is $2 pick six and I want to play it for 10%, then it becomes a 20 cent pick six for me, if want to play it for 5% then it becomes a 10 cent pick six for me. Now maybe they can stipulate that you can only do so if you play 50 or more combos and you cant go below x %, but it in essence is basically lowering the minimum bet amount, no matter how you spin it.
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06-07-2017, 03:28 PM
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#27
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poindexter
How is this different? If it is $2 pick six and I want to play it for 10%, then it becomes a 20 cent pick six for me, if want to play it for 5% then it becomes a 10 cent pick six for me. Now maybe they can stipulate that you can only do so if you play 50 or more combos and you cant go below x %, but it in essence is basically lowering the minimum bet amount, no matter how you spin it.
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Which might be better for the wagerer as this often would mean the cashing value would be below the tax threshold for withholding, and they can always hit the repeat button as often as they wish...
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06-07-2017, 03:32 PM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbowker
Just so everyone is clear here. Fractional wagering is not lowering the minimum base value of a wager.
Fractional wagering is a customer developing their ticket and saying "I want this bet for (x) dollars". Then the tote determines the % of the winning dollars that bet would collect if it's a winner.
In the earlier example of a P6 with 2 horses in each leg, instead of paying $128, a customer could bring that bet to a window and say "I want this for $32" and would collect 25% of the $2 price.
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Technically you are certainly correct but practically lowering the minimum does essentially the same thing.
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06-07-2017, 03:37 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC
What makes 50 cents better than 25 cents or 10 cents? I think they should test varying amounts to find where the optimal size is.
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California is different than most jurisdictions. They've been fighting like hell to keep it at $2. Fifty cents is the lowest they'll go.
Only 10 cent wager should be a Pick 8 Jackpot at Del Mar instead of a place pick all. 15% take with 10% to jackpot
IMO of course.
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06-07-2017, 03:38 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Cone
Did you mean pick 6?
The pick 5 minimum already is at 50 cents in California.
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Yes, my bad.
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