Religious

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I have no pretensions of hiding my intolerance towards certain intolerant posters

Then also quit pretending to be self-righteous preacher of Tolerance, you hypocrite!

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You are becoming an insufferable bore...

Geesh...I never realized there would be so many lovers and advocates of Pain out there.

Boxcar

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Is pain good or evil (or bad), and why? A profoundly simple and, yet, thought-provoking question

Are royal pains in the ass evil?

Well some are quite persistent about nonsense too

[boxcar]

The sovereignty of God is taught everywhere in the bible. So, I have no reason to shrink away from this doctrine, which I hold to be very precious. If God had not predestined me in eternity "past" for salvation, I would to this day still be dead in my sins and I would not be on this OT forum of a horsey website discussing the bible and God's great gift of salvation. Point in fact (which we'll soon see) is that the sovereign decrees of God are most clearly manifested in scripture when he covenanted with His Son in eternity to assume the form of man and come into this dark, forlorn, sin-filled world to save many sinners by bearing their sins in his body on the Cross. Man mistakenly believes (as do many professing Christians) that their eternal destiny rests in their own hands. But nowhere in the bible is this taught. Man plans his way but his steps are ordained by God. The hearts of kings are like channels of water in God's hands, which He directs as He wills. Man's way is not in himself, etc., etc.. Many cannot accept these kinds of crystal clear, unambiguous passages (which are numerous) because they try to reason through God's sovereign decrees and understand how God can at once direct man's steps, yet still hold man accountable for his sins While, I do not pretend to fully understand how God is able to direct men's hearts (such as He did with Pharaoh and others) and how by this interaction man is still morally culpable, I do believe I can provide some insight from scripture (perfectly in line with Partial Agnosticism). I can no more fully understand God's interaction with his rational, moral creation than I can fully grasp the incarnation of Christ. Yet, scripture is quite clear on these two matters: God is in total control of his creation and does whatsoever He wills according to the counsel of his own perfect, holy and good will -- apart from any contingency considerations. And at the same time, man is morally culpable. Man is a sinner, which is why he sins. Man is evil, which is why he acts wickedly.

Some of what I'm going to say here might shock even the believers on this thread (and there might be more than we think, since most people on forums like to read far more than they like to participate. But let the chips fall where they may. I will not shrink back from sharing truth or even the full counsel of God -- even when the meat is tough. So, coming right out the chute, I'll share with all what are probably three very little known passages and then use those three texts as springboard for a more detailed study.

David wrote:

Ps 141:4
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice deeds of wickedness
With men who do iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.
NASB

And Isaiah wrote:

Isa 63:17
17 Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways,
And harden our heart from fearing Thee?
Return for the sake of Thy servants, the tribes of Thy heritage.
NASB

And then Moses wrote on the heels of the Hebrews' rebellion in the Wlderness for 40 years:

Deut 29:4
4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
NASB

Yet, God punished David severely for his great sins of murder and adultery. And God punished the Hebrews severely in the wilderness for their sins. And God punished the northern kingdom of Israel, according to Isaiah's prophecies, by sending the Assyrians against them and carrying them off into captivity. Unjust of God? I think not once Grace is tossed into the equation and its meaning grasped.

How did God "cause" the Jews to stray from His ways? I would answer the same way He "causes" his New Covenant people today to walk in His ways!

Ezek 36:26-27
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
NASB

So, in one case, God sovereignly withholds his grace, which does not make him unjust since no one deserves it. While in the other case, he sovereignly bestows grace upon totally unworthy people which will empower them to walk in His ways. As stated often on this thread, Grace is like life itself: With either, God can giveth and he can taketh away (withhold) it.

But whether God gives or withholds, the reason is never found in the objects to whom he grants grace or from whom he withholds it. All humanity is made from one lump. The difference between who is sinner and who is saint is The Potter. It is the "Potter" who determined in eternity who would be His adoptive children and who he would leave to be Satan's seed. It is the Potter who makes the two lumps, not sinners. After all, all humanity descends from one and the same sinful lump (Adam). Notice carefully in the passage below that both lumps of clay were prepared beforehand -- one for destruction and one for glory.

Rom 9:19-24
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
NASB

There is only one question remaining which I'll couch in terms that rabbi Harold Kushner used: "Why do bad things happen to nice people?" Or we could even couch the question in these terms: Why do evil things happen to "good" people? Since God decrees all things that come to past, including the death of His only begotten Son, do such decrees absolve the actual murderers -- the Immediate Causes of Christ's, as PA has suggested? Were the murderers doing God's will, which would set them free from all consequences of their actions? We'll examine this last question in my next post when we return to the important spiritual principle of the Greater Good.

Boxcar

[hcap]

Originally Posted by BollixedUpCar

The sovereignty of God is taught everywhere in the bible. So, I have no reason to shrink away from this doctrine, which I hold to be very precious. If God had not predestined me in eternity "past" for salvation, I would to this day still be dead in my sins and I would not be on this OT forum of a horsey website discussing the bible and God's great gift of salvation.

So god is evil after all

[boxcar]

On other occasions it has been discussed that God can turn Evil on its head derive Good from it. God can use Evil means to achieve Good ends. Joseph in the OT is a prime example of this principle. Joseph was a son of Jacob in the OT. Because Joseph's brothers were jealous of their youngest brother they plotted great evil against him. (The story of Joseph begins in Genesis 37 if anyone is interested.) But all of Joseph's misfortunes were ordained of God! And while his brothers meant evil against him, God meant it all for good!

Gen 50:16-21
16 So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, "Your father charged before he died, saying, 17 'Thus you shall say to Joseph, "Please forgive, I beg you, the transgression of your brothers and their sin, for they did you wrong."' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father. "And Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18 Then his brothers also came and fell down before him and said, "Behold, we are your servants." 19 But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. 21 So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones." So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.
NASB

And it was for a great good that God used Joseph's hardships, mistreatment and misfortune ; for it had not been that Joseph eventually became second in command to Pharaoh, it's very likely that his 11 brothers and their families would not have survived a great famine that plagued the Land of Canaan where they had been living before Joseph gave them sanctuary in Egypt. If it weren't for Joseph, the Jews' existence would have likely been very short lived.

Many examples of this principle abound in scripture, but we'll briefly look at just three more before seeing how Christ's foreordained death was the ultimate good for the entire world. Let's look at Peter's temptation.

Luke 22:31-34
31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers. " 33 And he said to Him, "Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!" 34 And He said, "I say to you, Peter, the cock will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me."
NASB

This is an incredibly thought-provoking passage in more ways than one, especially since Satan was a key player in the fall of mankind. (I have often wondered, for example, if Satan "demanded" to "sift" Adam and Eve like wheat and God granted him success in that, as well.) But I digress...Here in the passage before us, God did empower Satan to succeed in tempting (sifting) Peter; yet at the same time that success was only temporary, since Peter did repent of his sin.

Then we see that Jesus revealed a reason for this "sifting" -- a reason behind Peter falling into sin. Once Peter repented (thanks to Christ's intercessory prayer on his behalf), he would become a stronger believer himself and from his experience he would be in a position to minister to his brothers. He would be able to teach them out of his sorrowful and shameful experience. He'd be equipped to encourage, support and strengthen them in ways that he would not have been able if he had not fallen into sin. So...sin abounded for a short season so that grace could abound even more -- and so Peter could minister to others, as well. God once again took Evil and stood it on its head.

Then I could cite many examples in Paul's life. Paul did not have it easy after his conversion. God ordained a great deal of tribulation and suffering for Paul at the hands of sinners -- especially at the hands of his unbelieving brothers, according to the flesh. Paul truly did bear Christ's cross daily in his life (Lk 9:23). Here is one passage from one of Paul's own prison epistles that teaches a Greater Good resulted in all of Paul's trials, tribulations and suffering that God had ordained for him.

Phil 1:12-21
12 Now I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel, 13 so that my imprisonment in the cause of Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorian guard and to everyone else, 14 and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. 15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; 16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; 17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice. 19 For I know that this shall turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I shall not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ shall even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
NASB

Time won't permit an exposition of a passage that is bursting at the seams with the many benefits that resulted from Paul's trials and hardships. But the passage speaks for itself, anway. And Jesus did promise that he would show Paul how much he'd have to suffer for His name's sake (Act 9:15-16). But all of Paul's tribulations and trials and hardships were designed to result in a Greater Good, which included among other things the furtherance of the Gospel.

Often on this thread the "slaughter of the little innocents" has been raised to show how unjust God is and what a murderous monster he is, etc. But these gratuitous insults and criticisms have no ground in truth whatsoever. Often I have pointed out that the slaughter of children by the Israelites was actually a merciful act commanded by God since the evidence in scripture is compelling that those who die before attaining to sufficient knowledge of Good and Evil would be ushered into the blissful presence of God for all eternity on the basis of Christ's righteousness being imputed to such souls in eternity. I even quoted scripture to prove this. All to no avail, apparently; for virtually all here seem to think it would have been better for the children to have grown into adulthood just so they could spend eternity in hell! So, I' won't waste a lot of time rehashing old things, but will point to the central NT passage that gives affirmation to all the Old texts previously quoted or cited.

Matt 18:10, 14
10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven....14 "Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
NASB

So, ponder this for a moment: Human lifespan is but a vapor when compared to eternity. Even if we lived to be 100 years old, what is 100 years compared to eternity? So, the question that needs to be asked is this: Is it better for all children to never die and all live to adulthood, attaining to the age of accountability, and most of them perish for all eternity due to their lack of faith? Or is the Greater Good that some "innocent" children die in this age, live in eternal bliss and never see Hell? This is a no-brainer for me; although I know most here will not be able to see it this way. But regardless, this is the biblical response to the hateful, harsh and unjust criticisms against God.

Now, we come to PA's ludicrous charge that because the Jews fulfilled prophecies regarding Christ's death, that absolves them from all guilt since the Jews were performing God's will. But were they? PA equates prophecies with commands. He also confuses prophecies for injunctions. To be sure the Father and Son made a covenant with each other in eternity with the Son agreeing to carry out his Father's will for a GREATER GOOD. And this Greater Good was the redemption of many souls. A holy, righteous God had only two options open to him for dealing with fallen mankind. Option A: Provide no salvivic remedy. Justly, pass over all mankind and condemn them as he has ordained in eternity to do with the fallen angels. Option B: Unlike his just treatment of all the fallen angles, provide a salvific remedy to save many men in,through and by Christ, while also sovereignly choosing to pass over many others. The sovereignty of God cannot possibly be seen any clearer than in all the Messianic prophecies. I have often said on this thread that what God decrees is fixed and what is fixed is certain to come to pass. But prophecy isn't Law. Prophecies aren't statutes or ordinances. There are no commands in scripture for anyone to murder God's Son. But by God's authority and decree His Son was murdered at the hands of sinners.

Another reason God isn't culpable is because the divine plan, while employing evil means, achieved a Greater Good. The Jews first then the Gentiles meant to bring harm (evil) to Christ. But God took all the evil done to his Christ and turned it inside out to accomplish the Greatest Good for mankind by saving untold numbers of human beings, which could not have happened apart the sacrificial death of the Lamb of God. This is the difference between a holy God and sinners. God is good and, therefore, the intents and thoughts of his heart are always good and designed to achieve the Greatest Good. But the thoughts and intentions of man's heart are evil continually with no good end in sight -- no good end ever intended.

Note carefully how God's decrees and man's actions are inextricably intertwined:

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, YOU nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
NASB

Before getting to the next passage, not how Peter prefaced his remarks about God's destiny for his Christ by quoting OT passages:

Acts 4:25-26
25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
26 'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'
NASB

This is the natural dispostion of men's hearts against God. Rage, anger, obstinacy, stubbornness, rebellion -- all these characterize the sinner's heart to one degree or another. But the hearts of all men is like clay on God's hands. He used sinners to accomplish his eternal purpose -- in the same way he used Pharaoh, king Nebuchadnezzar, king Darius, king Cyrus, Pontius Pilate, etc., etc. to accomplish his purpose.

Then after Peter's brief commentary in his prayer on mankind, he went on to pray in the same passage:

Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.
NASB

And this in the OT:

Isa 53:10
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
NASB

Understand this: It pleased the Lord to "crush him" because out of God's incredible love for his covenant people, they would benefit from his Son's death. Note the various ways God's people would benefit:

Isa 53:4-6, 8
4 Surely OUR griefs He Himself bore,
And OUR sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for OUR transgressions,
He was crushed for OUR iniquities;
The chastening for OUR well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging WE are healed.
6 All of US like sheep have gone astray,
Each of US has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of US ALL
To fall on Him.... 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of MY people to whom the stroke was due?
NASB

Isa 53:11
1 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the MANY,
As He will bear THEIR iniquities.
NASB

So...when the Jews delivered up their Messiah to the Gentiles to be murdered, their intent was pure evil. There was nothing but hatred in their heart for Christ. Yet, God, out of his great love for his covenant people and in his infinite wisdom, took that evil and turned it around for good -- in fact, the Greatest Good possible. Jesus himself taught:

John 15:13
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
NASB

The Jews delivered Jesus to the Gentiles because they wanted to take an innocent life; yet Jesus laid down his own life so that others may live. "By HIS scourging WE are healed" -- spiritually.

In closing, then, we see two great principles at work. First, God is the Ultimate Cause of all that happens in the universe, yet he is without sin; for he never forces his will upon anyone. Man will think and act according to the measure of God's grace in his soul. The more grace in a person's heart, the more virtuous and good is the person. Conversely, to the degree that God leaves a person to his own devices, influencing his heart with less grace, that person will think and act more in accordance with his inherently evil nature, making him the Immediate Cause of all his sins. Since Grace is defined as unmerited, undeserved favor bestowed by God upon sinners, God is not morally obligated to bestow grace upon any of his fallen creatures. The angels who were created higher than man are proof of this, since God has made no provision to save any of the fallen angels. God chose instead to leave the fallen angels in their sinful state for all eternity. Therefore, God could have justly done that with mankind as well.

Secondly, even when God uses wicked men and their sinful acts for his purpose, God isn't culpable for their sin because the end justifies the means in God's case. God can take Evil and turn it for Good. Even though men intend to do evil, God never intends evil -- only good. God took all the evil that was done to Joseph and used it for Good. He took the evil that was done to Peter and used it for a Greater Good. He took all the evil he ordained for Paul to suffer and used it for Good. God took the rage and anger and hatred of sinners against his Son and used it for the Greatest Good possible -- the eternal salvation of many. And so it is to this day. The world is filled with all manner of evil, including pain, suffering, sorrow, misery and ultimately death. Yet, God still uses all this to convert his chosen people. A true saint will tell you that he is the greatest sinner who has ever lived, which is what Paul felt -- and I feel. God, to this day, still takes sinners and transform them into saints -- usually using their own sins to accomplish that. Only an infinitely Good and Wise God can use Evil as a means to achieve ends that are Good.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

So god is evil after all

You mean your metaphor for God is evil, right?

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again, my question to Actor about pain was this: Is pain good or evil (or bad), and why? A profoundly simple and, yet, thought-provoking question. It was a question designed to think about the different kinds of pain and to observe the world around us and what the world largely thinks about pain, as well as medical science. The reason Actor's over-simplified answer fails is because in the real world (which I call God's Natural Revelation) -- in reality as most of us know it -- people do not think of pain as a "good" thing in the absolute sense. Ask anyone who has experienced a bad toothache over the weekend. Or someone who suffers from migraine headaches. Or ask a good friend of mine who is suffering from chronic pain from throat cancer and what it feels like if he weren't on powerful pain-killing drugs. Ask doctors who do all in their power to relieve pain and suffering. Or ask Big Pharm who spends untold billions researching and developing new and better pain-killing drugs. Or visit any number of Pain Treatment Centers across the U.S.; for they would be able to tell you a thing or two about how "good" pain is when their whole reason for existing is to relieve pain. Or visit any mental institution and observe what they do to relieve emotional/psychological suffering in their patients, etc., etc.

But in fairness to Actor, and to present a balance view of pain, his answer did have some truth to it. But this is precisely why it failed; for it was a half-truth. Pain actually does serve a good purpose in mere mortals. Physical pain, for example, actually helps to preserve and prolong life. It would not be to our benefit to not experience pain in our mortal bodies. If we did not experience pain, our longevity rate would be greatly reduced. In fact, the lack of physical pain, especially, would pose a serious extinction threat. We would die prematurely because we would not know that we are sick or diseased or have even suffered a traumatic, life-threatening blow.

From all that has been said, thus far, there is only one reasonable and rational conclusion we can reach about pain: Pain, paradoxically, is both Good and Evil. The very best that can be said about pain is: It's a necessary evil. Both kinds of pain (or suffering) actually serve a practical purpose in life -- on both a micro and macro level, I might add. Because of this fact, pain is relatively good. However, pain is also Evil (defined as the "absence of good") because pain is not pleasurable or enjoyable. Pain doesn't bring a smile to our face. Pain is not a happy experience. Most people in the world can find no joy in pain (joy being different from happiness). Pain, suffering or discomfort is generally a pretty negative experience, depending, of course, on the scale of it. And not only does pain impact those who suffer from it immediately, but pain can negatively impact indirectly the observers or treaters of it -- loved ones of those who are afflicted with it, etc.

We know how pain serves us on a micro (personal) level. But pain and suffering in the world also serves us on a much grander scale (macro level, if you will). I postulated on this thread once that if there were no pain, suffering and misery in this fallen world, and we all stand before the Judge of the Earth on the last day, and he declares us guilty as sinners and condemns us for all eternity, we'd all be scratching our heads wondering how this could be since our existence on the earth was so utopian-like. Yes, we may have sinned, but none of the negative effects of sin were ever manifested to us! We all went about our daily business and affairs, as though sin was perfectly natural and acceptable. After all, where were it's negative effects, if sin were so bad? No one suffered because of our sins! The sinner himself didn't suffer due to his own sins! Surely, if sin was so bad, God would have given us ample warning here in this life that sin brings misery, sorrow, suffering, pain and ultimately death. But if not, what would we then say about God who hid these truths from us in the natural world? We would certainly charge him as being the great deceiver for hiding material evidence from us. We would charge him with lying by omission!

In concluding this part of my modest essay, we have seen that pain is good -- but only in a relative sense. Only in the sense that it is a necessary evil in a world of mortals. Since this is the case, there could be a Greater Good or Ultimate Good. There could be a Good that not only serves a practical purpose but actually achieves a more noble end than mere self-preservation. If this this Greater or Ultimate Good it would have to apply beyond ourselves. In the very beginning, God looked upon his creation and saw that is it was "very good". Not just relatively good -- but "very good". His creation is never talked about again in those terms after the Fall of mankind.

At the end of the age when the entire universe is created anew -- when all has been redeemed by the Redeemer -- we are told that in the New Heavens and New Earth, there will no longer be any suffering, pain, sorrow, misery or death. That tears will be wiped from all eyes forever. This re-creation of all things, therefore, will represent "Paradise Restored" (the pristine, perfect Garden of Eden environment prior to the Fall wherein survival worries, as one example, will be the farthest thing from any inhabitant's mind). We can only conclude from all this that the Greater Good in the next age will ultimately be the absence of all the conditions that immediately caused all the pain, misery, suffering, sorrow and death in this age. The Greater Good will be all that is Good. And only God is good. And this is why Revelations also teaches that God will be the saints' "temple". All His holy saints will live, worship, praise and exalt him while being totally and perfectly in Him.

In the next segment, we'll briefly revisit an old topic that has often been discussed on this thread -- Grace. And then in the last segment, we'll come back to this important principle of the Greater Good and how God can turn Evil on its head for the Greater Good.

Boxcar

Oh no...there is another segment?

And then you wonder if we've experienced pain...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Are royal pains in the ass evil?

Well some are quite persistent about nonsense too

Not according to Actor. All forms of pain are good.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Oh no...there is another segment?

And then you wonder if we've experienced pain...

But it's all good, isn't it? You aren't parting company with Actor, are you? Thus saith Actor, "Pain is good". We'd be screwed without it.

Boxcar

[hcap]

I thought it was self explanatory. Hint: god allows you to persist "discussing"

hcap

So god is evil after all

btw, self explanatory is similar to self defeating except it is self explanatory

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Oh no...there is another segment?

And then you wonder if we've experienced pain...

Jokes are wasted on those with no sense of humor

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You are becoming an insufferable bore...

Time moves slowly for you.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Time moves slowly for you.

I was being kind before, because he is a cat lover.

But, doggone it...enough is enough.

[hcap]

Looks like he is gonna do another insufferable 10 part treatise.