Religious

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You must not read very much if you think most of the posts on this forum are worthy of a second look, let alone are of publishing quality.

I've heard that religion books are a hot item in the publishing biz today. An agreement between the posters hcap listed in #12969, plus a few others, and one or two years of editing, and you might come up with something salable.

I don't think I'd want to take the editing project on without a deal with a publisher at the get-go.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Ask Actor about the relationship or association between the two kinds of pain. He also said that "emotional pain", which he dismissed as a "quirk of the English language" (as though only Brits and Americans, I suppose, hold to the existence of such pain),is also good.. He said that the "separation anxiety" that children feel is GOOD! So...there you have it. Right from the mule's mouth.

The problem with saying that Pain is absolutely a good thing is that most rational people in the world would not view either form of pain in that way. Actor (and now you?) believe that Pain is always a good thing -- PERIOD! And I provided several reasons why this isn't so. For example, if Pain were so unqualifiedly good, as you two seem to think, then why would anyone in their right mind try to alleviate pain? Why the need for Pain Centers in all modern countries? Why the need for drugs? Why the need for any medical attention to relieve pain -- if pain were an absolute good? I also posited this question: If pain is good, wouldn't the absence of all causes to it be an even Greater Good? If you say "no", then you would have to believe that Pain is absolutely good in and of itself. But if you say, "yes" that the absence of pain's causes would even be better, then neither you or Actor should be thinking that pain is an absolutely good thing.

So...as Actor has also said, "extrapolation" is a valid form of logic. Since he didn't qualify the "goodness" of pain in any way, shape or form, then one can reasonably take his assessment of pain to its logical conclusion: Let's all have Pain and lots of it because Pain is an absolute good! Let's inflict pain on each other -- as much as we can. After all, it's great to know that we're hurting, isn't it? Let's have more wars. The more wars the better because Pain is a beneficial thing to experience. End of Story because Actor ended it there!

What I find fascinating is that neither one of you think pain is a necessary evil, for example, in an evil world. Conversely, Actor was not hesitant in expressing his low regard for Law Enforcement and the Judicial System when he called those institutions "necessary evils". He did not view either of these as good things, per se.

Boxcar
P.S. Actor never said anything about how people should seek help when in pain. Go back and read his answer.

I put it to anyone who reads this that boxcar's post is a pack of lies. One lie after another. Whenever boxie does not get the answer he wants, he proceeds as though he got it anyway. Not only does he ignore the rules of logic, but he presents theories that are nothing short of ludicrous. I thought his theory of "search the universe for god" was ridiculous, but he managed to go beyond that and present his "pain is good, ergo, war is good" theory which is just plain insane.

He ends the above post with

Originally Posted by boxcar

Actor never said anything about how people should seek help when in pain.

Jesus Christ! Does every bit of minutiae have to be explained to him? Is it too much to assume that he knows, as most people do, about dialing 911? Is it too much to assume that he is aware, as most people are, that a child will cry out to its caregiver when he/she is in pain? Is such common knowledge really beyond his capacity?

Is it too much to assume that he understands that if he sticks his hand into boiling water the resulting pain functions to motivate him to remove it?

I have an alarm system in my home. I think that's a good thing to have. Following boxie's logic it then follows that having my home burglarized is also good.

Pain is like the national weather service. It's job is to give you the bad news that a hurricane is on the way. It's bad news, but it's good to have that news. You can prepare. That does not mean the hurricane is a good thing.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

Is it too much to assume that he understands that if he sticks his hand into boiling water the resulting pain functions to motivate him to remove it?

I find reading his posts is like sticking my head in boiling water. More tedious and literally more painful than ever. For a long time I felt debating him was at least an intellectual challenge. I think after he made public his delusional so-called "treatise" of the universe, and crap about time flowing backwards, I realized I was debating a madman.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I put it to anyone who reads this that boxcar's post is a pack of lies. One lie after another. Whenever boxie does not get the answer he wants, he proceeds as though he got it anyway. Not only does he ignore the rules of logic, but he presents theories that are nothing short of ludicrous. I thought his theory of "search the universe for god" was ridiculous, but he managed to go beyond that and present his "pain is good, ergo, war is good" theory which is just plain insane.

He ends the above post with Jesus Christ! Does every bit of minutiae have to be explained to him? Is it too much to assume that he knows, as most people do, about dialing 911? Is it too much to assume that he is aware, as most people are, that a child will cry out to its caregiver when he/she is in pain? Is such common knowledge really beyond his capacity?

Is it too much to assume that he understands that if he sticks his hand into boiling water the resulting pain functions to motivate him to remove it?

I have an alarm system in my home. I think that's a good thing to have. Following boxie's logic it then follows that having my home burglarized is also good.

Pain is like the national weather service. It's job is to give you the bad news that a hurricane is on the way. It's bad news, but it's good to have that news. You can prepare. That does not mean the hurricane is a good thing.

Hey...you answered the question the way you did. You think emotional and physical pain is good. Period. Now live it and quit blaming me for your utterly naive, simple-minded answer. Go back and read what YOU wrote.

In your answer, you explained why physical pain is good, which was what I desired since my question to you was a compound one. But explaining "why" doesn't qualify your answer -- it only explains the first part to your answer.

By the way, wasn't it you who said that "extrapolation" is a "valid form of logic"? And now you whine like a little sissy because I can logically take your simplistic answer to its logical conclusion.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Spending too much time responding to your insane comments, consequently not handicapping as many races and not getting as many bets in.

All salient points have been addressed. No one's going to change their mind.

FTFY

FTFY too.

So now you're going to deliberately misquote me, too. You rival Hcap in the Deception Dept.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

By the way -- just to refresh everyone's memory on how YOU answered my question which again was: Is Pain Good or Evil (bad), and why? Now, this is how you responded in 12923:

Originally Posted by Actor

PAIN IS GOOD. Not in a "good vs. evil" kind of way but in a "good to have because you're screwed if you don't have it." Pain is a message to the damage control center of the brain.

Ok. Spring the trap.

(emphasis mine)

You see...nothing about calling 911 or anything else. Besides, why would you say that and cast Pain in a negative (bad) light just after you got finished saying it was GOOD!?

Two observations: You did not put Pain in the same category as our Law Enforcement or Judicial systems, which you dismissed as being merely being necessary evils. Not at all! Pain to your mind is unqualifiedly GOOD! "Pain is good", is what you said. Why? Because, as you explained, it serves a singular good purpose, conveniently forgetting about all the negative aspect to pain.

Secondly, you sensed that I was springing a trap for you (which I wasn't), yet you still didn't take the time or make any effort to think through your answer more carefully. You threw caution to the wind, and now you're going to blame me for using a "valid form of logic" to take your answer to its logical conclusion? After all, you never once hinted in your answer that pain can also be anything but good! Misery, suffering and discomfort never entered your mind. So, I have to think you must think these effects of pain are good, as well.

But a more thoughtful person could have answered very succinctly by simply saying that Pain is a necessary evil. (You see, "simple" is good when it's grounded in Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding v. Ignorance or Naivete.) That kind of answer would tell readers two things immediately: First, the term "necessary" qualifies the noun "evil". Secondly, saying that pain is "necessary" means there must be some redeeming value to it (some "good"); yet at the same time the term "evil" would have told us that there are certainly downsides to experiencing pain -- that there is a side to pain that is unpleasant, uncomfortable and unenjoyable.

But frankly, I knew that you would not answer as I have above. After all, you're a Materialist. Your schtick is the material (physical) world. And the physical world is good in your mind. And it's good because it's natural. (And besides -- it's all we have. ) So...when you think of pain, you can only think of it in naturalistic terms because no other reality exists for you. . Yet, I'm here to tell you that those who suffer great pain or chronic pain, as well as medical professionals who treat pain regularly, can tell you about another and very different reality associated with it! And very many, if not most, of these professionals, too, only know Materialism. But it's very doubtful that most of them would have answered as you have, since they are acquainted with pain up close and personal-like on a regular basis.

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But it's very doubtful that most of them would have answered as you have, since they are acquainted with pain up close and personal-like on a regular basis.

Boxcar

Absolute rubbish.
You know nothing of Actor's experiences with pain and whether or not he has encountered it up close "personal-like on a regular basis."

[hcap]

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. And taking things ULTRA literally. You are like a starving dog with a bone refusing to let go. This is another one of your preposterous invented issues you alone think is relevant to anything. It is time to move on.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Absolute rubbish.
You know nothing of Actor's experiences with pain and whether or not he has encountered it up close "personal-like on a regular basis."

He answered as THOUGH he had no experience with pain. If he has, then to him pain must still be good, given his answer to my original question.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. And taking things ULTRA literally. You are like a starving dog with a bone refusing to let go. This is another one of your preposterous invented issues you alone think is relevant to anything. It is time to move on.

Oh...should I have allegorized his answer to my original question?

Boxcar
P.S. In my next series of posts, I will show you just how relevant it is. Try to remove you dunce hat long enough to give a chance for something good to sink into your grey matter for change.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...should I have allegorized his answer to my original question?.

Perhaps you should simply shut up.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Perhaps you should simply shut up.

Your Intolerance is showing again, Mr. Preacher of Tolerance.

Boxcar

[hcap]

I have no pretensions of hiding my intolerance towards certain intolerant posters

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

He answered as THOUGH he had no experience with pain. If he has, then to him pain must still be good, given his answer to my original question.

Boxcar

You are becoming an insufferable bore...

[boxcar]

Again, my question to Actor about pain was this: Is pain good or evil (or bad), and why? A profoundly simple and, yet, thought-provoking question. It was a question designed to think about the different kinds of pain and to observe the world around us and what the world largely thinks about pain, as well as medical science. The reason Actor's over-simplified answer fails is because in the real world (which I call God's Natural Revelation) -- in reality as most of us know it -- people do not think of pain as a "good" thing in the absolute sense. Ask anyone who has experienced a bad toothache over the weekend. Or someone who suffers from migraine headaches. Or ask a good friend of mine who is suffering from chronic pain from throat cancer and what it feels like if he weren't on powerful pain-killing drugs. Ask doctors who do all in their power to relieve pain and suffering. Or ask Big Pharm who spends untold billions researching and developing new and better pain-killing drugs. Or visit any number of Pain Treatment Centers across the U.S.; for they would be able to tell you a thing or two about how "good" pain is when their whole reason for existing is to relieve pain. Or visit any mental institution and observe what they do to relieve emotional/psychological suffering in their patients, etc., etc.

But in fairness to Actor, and to present a balance view of pain, his answer did have some truth to it. But this is precisely why it failed; for it was a half-truth. Pain actually does serve a good purpose in mere mortals. Physical pain, for example, actually helps to preserve and prolong life. It would not be to our benefit to not experience pain in our mortal bodies. If we did not experience pain, our longevity rate would be greatly reduced. In fact, the lack of physical pain, especially, would pose a serious extinction threat. We would die prematurely because we would not know that we are sick or diseased or have even suffered a traumatic, life-threatening blow.

From all that has been said, thus far, there is only one reasonable and rational conclusion we can reach about pain: Pain, paradoxically, is both Good and Evil. The very best that can be said about pain is: It's a necessary evil. Both kinds of pain (or suffering) actually serve a practical purpose in life -- on both a micro and macro level, I might add. Because of this fact, pain is relatively good. However, pain is also Evil (defined as the "absence of good") because pain is not pleasurable or enjoyable. Pain doesn't bring a smile to our face. Pain is not a happy experience. Most people in the world can find no joy in pain (joy being different from happiness). Pain, suffering or discomfort is generally a pretty negative experience, depending, of course, on the scale of it. And not only does pain impact those who suffer from it immediately, but pain can negatively impact indirectly the observers or treaters of it -- loved ones of those who are afflicted with it, etc.

We know how pain serves us on a micro (personal) level. But pain and suffering in the world also serves us on a much grander scale (macro level, if you will). I postulated on this thread once that if there were no pain, suffering and misery in this fallen world, and we all stand before the Judge of the Earth on the last day, and he declares us guilty as sinners and condemns us for all eternity, we'd all be scratching our heads wondering how this could be since our existence on the earth was so utopian-like. Yes, we may have sinned, but none of the negative effects of sin were ever manifested to us! We all went about our daily business and affairs, as though sin was perfectly natural and acceptable. After all, where were it's negative effects, if sin were so bad? No one suffered because of our sins! The sinner himself didn't suffer due to his own sins! Surely, if sin was so bad, God would have given us ample warning here in this life that sin brings misery, sorrow, suffering, pain and ultimately death. But if not, what would we then say about God who hid these truths from us in the natural world? We would certainly charge him as being the great deceiver for hiding material evidence from us. We would charge him with lying by omission!

In concluding this part of my modest essay, we have seen that pain is good -- but only in a relative sense. Only in the sense that it is a necessary evil in a world of mortals. Since this is the case, there could be a Greater Good or Ultimate Good. There could be a Good that not only serves a practical purpose but actually achieves a more noble end than mere self-preservation. If this this Greater or Ultimate Good it would have to apply beyond ourselves. In the very beginning, God looked upon his creation and saw that is it was "very good". Not just relatively good -- but "very good". His creation is never talked about again in those terms after the Fall of mankind.

At the end of the age when the entire universe is created anew -- when all has been redeemed by the Redeemer -- we are told that in the New Heavens and New Earth, there will no longer be any suffering, pain, sorrow, misery or death. That tears will be wiped from all eyes forever. This re-creation of all things, therefore, will represent "Paradise Restored" (the pristine, perfect Garden of Eden environment prior to the Fall wherein survival worries, as one example, will be the farthest thing from any inhabitant's mind). We can only conclude from all this that the Greater Good in the next age will ultimately be the absence of all the conditions that immediately caused all the pain, misery, suffering, sorrow and death in this age. The Greater Good will be all that is Good. And only God is good. And this is why Revelations also teaches that God will be the saints' "temple". All His holy saints will live, worship, praise and exalt him while being totally and perfectly in Him.

In the next segment, we'll briefly revisit an old topic that has often been discussed on this thread -- Grace. And then in the last segment, we'll come back to this important principle of the Greater Good and how God can turn Evil on its head for the Greater Good.

Boxcar