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Old 02-10-2018, 01:29 PM   #5401
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When did I ever? Quote me.I did say your views are definitely UN-enlightened.

Hows about you bullshitting about being one of the few "saved"?
So...my views are "definitely unenlightened" compared to....YOUR enlightened views.

Regarding Unconditional Election, that is not my B.S. The bible teaches it. You're not jealous are you? Why do you care?
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Old 02-10-2018, 02:37 PM   #5402
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No wonder Archaeology is way beyond your grasp.
Exodus is what we were discussing. And my point is there it is a scienc, and you do not have the foggiest understanding of ANY science.

My point is that if you take Exodus literally you have lost the value of the archetypal mythic story present in many cultures on how the "good" may overcome what is wrong in all of us.

Most of the bible has value only if it is taken as an metaphorical inner journey and inner struggle. It must be understood psychologically or it is only a Saturday morning cartoon which rapidly becomes idol worship. And laughable.

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Old 02-10-2018, 04:16 PM   #5403
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I said Exodus is what we were discussing. And my point is there it is a scienc, and you do not have the foggiest understanding of ANY science.

My point is that if you take Exodus literally you have lost the value of the archetypal mythic story present in many cultures on how the "good" may overcome what is wrong in all of us.

Most of the bible has value only if it is taken as an metaphorical inner journey and inner struggle. It must be understood psychologically or it is only a Saturday morning cartoon which rapidly becomes idol worship. And laughable.
My point is that if you don't take the Exodus literally you have lost the value of the antitypical story (in other words lost sight of Ultimate Spiritual Reality). As often stated in this thread and the previous one, I interpret scripture (as do many millions of other born again Christians) the same way that the prophets, apostles and Jesus understood them and interpreted them. And how they understood and interpreted scripture is extremely important because they were all a lot closer to the recorded events than we are.

Jesus, as the antitype of the Exodus Passover and the Manna from Heaven that literally kept the Jews in the wilderness alive, said in his Bread of Life Discourse:

John 6:30-36
30 They said therefore to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.'" 32 Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." 34 They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
NASB

The physical manna in the physical wilderness provided by God from heaven literally preserved the physical life of the ancient Hebrews. Likewise, Jesus, as the Bread of Life whom the Father sent from Heaven to the Jews, literally keeps his Father's people spiritually alive because they spiritually feed (i.e. receive Him) by Faith. But if there was no actual TYPE, i.e. wilderness, and no manna from heaven, no receiving of the physical bread from heaven, then Jesus' parallel makes absolutely no sense because he couldn't possibly be the ANTITYPE. If the Jews believed their forefathers' wilderness experience was nothing but a myth with no factual grounds, then likewise they would have to believe that Jesus who was standing right before them was also a myth! And what he was teaching was a myth with no basis in spiritual truth. But of course, the Jews didn't believe that way. In fact, they alluded to such passages as Ex 16:4-15, 35, Num 11:6-9, Deut 8:3, Neh 9:20, etc. in their understanding of the wilderness experience. And of course, Jesus also believed their fathers' wilderness experience was an historical fact.

The same could be said with any number of types and antitypes in scripture. If the Passover never occurred in Egypt and there was no such animal as the Passover lamb (bad pun intended), then neither is Jesus the antitype, i.e. the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Or the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world, etc., etc. It would all be fiction with no absolutely no rational reason to believe and act on these biblical truths.

Did you believe in Superman when you grew up? Did you ever act on that belief? Did ever you try leaping over a tall building in a single bound? Of course not! You know why? Because you knew Superman had no basis in fact. He was fictional. Everything he did was fictional. So, you see, Mr. 'cap, it's you and other skeptics who truly want to gut scripture and pour out all its precious, eternal, life-saving and life-giving truths on the ground so that you can trample on them to feel good about yourself, while simultaneously mocking believers such as myself. You want to feel smart, wise, superior, above it all and enlightened. You want to buffet the wind while speaking with such authority and so dogmatically about the Unknown or Unknowable because....well, it sounds so spiritual!

But know this: I'm underwhelmed by your worldly wisdom.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:47 PM   #5404
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Do you know what the term "principle" means? I know that rocks and liquids differ in form, but they don't differ in principle because both are matter.
So what's your point?
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:58 PM   #5405
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Define, please, "open" and "large" systems, and give an example of each.
An open system is one which is either unbounded, or one where matter and/or energy are free to cross the boundary. A large system is one which exceeds a certain size. The magnitude of that size is dependent upon the nature of the experiment. Examples of both also depend on the nature of the experiment. If the experiment is abiogenesis then the primordial terrestrial sea is an example.

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No BOGO, heh? I thought you were going to give us the definition of "abiogensis".
Wherever did you get that idea?
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:37 PM   #5406
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An open system is one which is either unbounded, or one where matter and/or energy are free to cross the boundary. A large system is one which exceeds a certain size. The magnitude of that size is dependent upon the nature of the experiment. Examples of both also depend on the nature of the experiment. If the experiment is abiogenesis then the primordial terrestrial sea is an example.
You have defined the Law of Biogenisis as:

Law of Biogenesis: In a small closed system containing organic material new organisms are generated from the organic material of older organisms.

Can you give us concrete, unambiguous examples of specific organic life that is not subject to the law and specific organic life that is subject to the law?

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Wherever did you get that idea?
In 5382 you offered to take up the subject again of abiogenisis. You could start by defining it.
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Old 02-10-2018, 08:57 PM   #5407
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You have defined the Law of Biogenisis as:

Law of Biogenesis: In a small closed system containing organic material new organisms are generated from the organic material of older organisms.

Can you give us concrete, unambiguous examples of specific organic life that is not subject to the law and specific organic life that is subject to the law?
I'm not a biologist but I'll try.
  • Subject to the law:. The appearance of maggots in unrefrigerated meat left exposed to the elements. This is the case which the experiments of Louis Pasteur verified. Note that Paster's experiment involved small, closed systems.
  • Not subject to the law:. The appearance of RNA molecules in a primordial sea of organic materials. This involves a large, open system.
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Old 02-10-2018, 09:10 PM   #5408
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In 5382 you offered to take up the subject again of abiogenisis. You could start by defining it.
I didn't realize you needed it defined.

Let me start by defining an organism.

An organism is a molecular structure which, when immersed in (or in contact with) nutrients will reproduce itself, meaning that the initial structure will be replaced by two new structures which are identical, or nearly identical, to the original structure.

Understood?
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:33 PM   #5409
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what to tell a grieving parent over the loss of a child.
What a true Christian would tell them.

"Hey, heard your kid died. That's great. Now he's in a better place with Jesus."

"Thanks Ralph. Yeah, he went to be with Jesus yesterday about four o'clock. We're all glad for him. Funeral's going to be at Dan's Bar at noon Friday. Can you make it?"

"We'll be there for sure. Did he suffer?"

"Yeah, great pain. Good for the soul. Just ask Mother Teresa."

"Wonderful. How old was he? Six. Super. Angelhood in just six years."

"There's more. His little sister has the same disease. She won't last another year."

"Couldn't happen to a nicer kid. High five."


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Old 02-11-2018, 03:44 AM   #5410
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My point is that if you don't take the Exodus literally you have lost the value of the antitypical story (in other words lost sight of Ultimate Spiritual Reality
You start with believing Exodus is an Archaeological truth. If it is not-which is what mainstream science says, you have nothing. The same for the NT. If Jesus did not resurrect literately are all Christians no longer really Christians?

If you look deeper, both Jews and Christians still can be.

For the 100th time-over the last 15 years-of debating you, let me remind you it is not important whether or not the events in the bible actually occurred. The myth and symbolism of these archetypical tales which repeat multiculturally , are greater than any one religion. But you refuse to study other religions.

Funny you mentioned superman. The comic book character draws upon our subconscious yearning for expanding normal human development. A theme repeated in many cultures. However it is futile to base a wish to fly(unbridled ego) on derivative distorted mythology. Both the literal mis-interpretation of Exodus and Jesus are like worshiping Superman. In Zen we are warned not to get lost fixating on the signposts pointing to satori (higher mind) but to look to higher mind.

If someone points to the moon – don’t just look at the finger – because:

You’ll miss the moon
You think the finger is the moon
You don’t know what is naturally bright (has enlightenment) vs what is naturally dark (lacks enlightenment)

Taking the bible literally is not what the bible points us to.

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Old 02-11-2018, 09:53 AM   #5411
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....value of the antitypical story
Def:a person or thing that is foreshadowed or represented by a type or symbol, esp a character or event in the New Testament prefigured in the Old Testament. 2. an opposite type. antitypic (ˌæntɪˈtɪpɪk), antitypical, adjective.

Nonsense. The writers of the NT knew the story of the OT and conjuring up a reference was what easily may have happened. Nothing was "foreshadowed".

More precisely, in essence the story of Exodus is the same as the resurrection of Jesus.Transformation

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Old 02-11-2018, 12:56 PM   #5412
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I didn't realize you needed it defined.

Let me start by defining an organism.

An organism is a molecular structure which, when immersed in (or in contact with) nutrients will reproduce itself, meaning that the initial structure will be replaced by two new structures which are identical, or nearly identical, to the original structure.

Understood?
I understand perfectly, thank you.

Question: Is this the only way reproduction can occur with organisms? Can't reproduction occur through the process of biogenisis?
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:06 PM   #5413
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You start with believing Exodus is an Archaeological truth. If it is not-which is what mainstream science says, you have nothing.
No, I start with believing that the Exodus is an historical fact. To argue that it's not an historical fact due to lack of
archaelogical evidence is to commit the fallacy of argument from silence.

Quote:
] The same for the NT. If Jesus did not resurrect literately are all Christians no longer really Christians?
If there was no physical resurrection of Jesus, there is no Christianity. Period!

1 Cor 15:13-19
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
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Quote:
If you look deeper, both Jews and Christians still can be.

For the 100th time-over the last 15 years-of debating you, let me remind you it is not important whether or not the events in the bible actually occurred. The myth and symbolism of these archetypical tales which repeat multiculturally , are greater than any one religion. But you refuse to study other religions.
Yes, it is highly important for a number of reasons. First, it proves that God not only has not deserted sinful mankind but that he loved mankind so much that he has actually sovereignly ACTED in time and space to redeem many sinners by sending His only begotten Son into this dark, fallen, forlorn world to atone for all the sins of his Father's people.

Secondly, scripture is not about "archetypes". It's about Types and Antitypes -- this latter category is necessarily rooted in historical personages, events, places or institutions in temporal reality that were all foreordained by God's infinite wisdom to foreshadow and point to highly important eternal spiritual truths that are largely realized on this side of the Cross of Christ, and ultimately will be seen and fully realized at the end of the age in Eternity when Christ ushers in the Eternal Kingdom of God.

Quote:
Funny you mentioned superman. The comic book character draws upon our subconscious yearning for expanding normal human development. A theme repeated in many cultures. However it is futile to base a wish to fly(unbridled ego) on derivative distorted mythology. Both the literal mis-interpretation of Exodus and Jesus are like worshiping Superman. In Zen we are warned not to get lost fixating on the signposts pointing to satori (higher mind) but to look to higher mind.
Yeah, but do the comic books command its readers to believe and act on its contents? Kind of a significant difference between the bible
and those kinds of fictional entertainment books, I would think.

Quote:
If someone points to the moon – don’t just look at the finger – because:

You’ll miss the moon
You think the finger is the moon
You don’t know what is naturally bright (has enlightenment) vs what is naturally dark (lacks enlightenment)

Taking the bible literally is not what the bible points us to.
But you must START with temporal reality (i..e the physical world) in order to ultimately reach the destination known as the Kingdom of Heaven. This principle is actually taught in scripture, ironically by Christ's physical resurrection. Read and try to understand:

1 Cor 15:35-49
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
NASB

Finally, mankind doesn't need religion. I certainly don't need religion -- not the way you mean it! What all men really need is salvation from their sins through Jesus Christ. Religion (unless understood as narrowly defined by scripture) often gets in the way of having a personal relationship with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit. Religion actually hinders the relationship between God and man and can be so detrimental to personal relationships that it can actually do irreparable damage to one's faith. Here is how scripture defines true religion:

James 1:23-27
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. 27 This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
NASB
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:49 PM   #5414
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Every so often I try to provide an alternative to your literal knee-jerk nonsense, and perhaps give Actor more than just your silliness. One of the advantages to studying many religions and being Jewish is a metaphorical view

But it always ends the same way. You totally discard the non-literal and once again have no answer to secular scholars.

Maybe later
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Old 02-11-2018, 04:57 PM   #5415
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Every so often I try to provide an alternative to your literal knee-jerk nonsense, and perhaps give Actor more than just your silliness. One of the advantages to studying many religions and being Jewish is a metaphorical view

But it always ends the same way. You totally discard the non-literal and once again have no answer to secular scholars.

Maybe later
Why do I need secular scholars to have a personal relationship with my Creator and Redeemer? I answer to God, not to secular scholars!

You sooooooo miss the the entire point to God sending Jesus into this world. He didn't send Him to give mankind a new religion! And you keep preaching to me how I mistake the map (religion in your case) for the territory (the real reason Jesus came into this world. He sent Jesus to lay down his very life and take it up again so that He could then freely justify undeserving sinners and save them from ever suffering the Second Death. Jesus who knew no sin became sin for his Father's people, having all the sins of the Father's elect laid upon Him, and this imputation of sin upon Him became the judicial grounds upon which the Father was able to act graciously by forgiving sin and freeing his people from the power of sin.

The Great mystery of the Gospel and its Profound Paradox is that God first had to execute the penalty for sin (capital punishment) BEFORE he could forgive sin and save anyone. God did not lay aside his righteousness/justice and just give a wink-wink to sin, as though sin was not very big deal. God was in Christ paying his own prescribed penalty of his own Law on behalf of rebellious, law-breakers!

There is no other religion in this dark world that even comes close to teaching what I just laid out for you above. The warp 'n' woof to biblical Christianity is that scripture teaches that God condescends and reaches out to man even though all men are his natural born enemies. This stands in sharp contrast to all other religions which essentially teach what man must do to win favor with God.
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