Paulick: Time for Anti-Lasix advocates to move on to other doping problems

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

Dehydration is an easy issue to solve. State vets and Racing Stewards are in the barns every day and can determine when a horse has been denied water. Then they scratch the horse. End of the practice quickly ensues.

Um, no they're not. And who said they'd be interested at all in ending the practice?

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You don't think the top equine vets in the world would know if a lasix shot is causing pain to the horse?

Humans aren't horses, and no, we don't react the same way to medications. And thankfully, we don't have similar waste removal systems as the horse.

I haven't seen any articles or studies discussing the effect of prophylactic administration of IV Lasix measured by pain/discomfort in horses that haven't had EIPH vs any potential benefit of IV Lasix.

Specifically, I don't think vets have ever been specifically asked the question "Is the administration of IV Lasix painful or uncomfortable to a horse."

That needs to be part of the discussion as well considering both sides state the health and welfare of the horse comes first.

I will start asking that question when I encounter a vet. You are welcome to do the same. Then we can share our results.

As far as your opinion humans don't react the same way to medications, point me to the basis in fact that proves horse's don't react to IV Lasix the same as humans.

Until then, my empirical evidence of how IV Lasix makes a human feel and my being told (by horse owners) horses feel pain and discomfort as we do will is what I have to go on.

I would be open to the experience of other people who may have had IV Lasix to concur or disagree with my statement it is uncomfortable to the point of being painful in humans but I'm pretty confident that is the majority experience after having discussed the topic with a number of doctors and nurses.

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Um, no they're not. And who said they'd be interested at all in ending the practice?

I would recommend viewing the recent "Welfare & Safety of the Horse Summit" video, particularly the 2:30 panel on Integrity and Security. https://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/W...Wss_agenda.asp

You will find more and more tracks are installing stable surveillance as well as using Safety Stewards.

Safety Stewards, who along with the state vets do pre-race exams, are in the barns every morning.

If the state vet or steward notices a dehydrated horse, I'm confident they would have a discussion with the trainer or groom and then notify the racing stewards so the horse be scratched in the same way a lame horse or sick horse would be scratched.

[Denny]

Having switched to Harness racing practically full-time as far as betting is concerned, I have some questions for you t-bred players.

How is it that standardbreds can race every week for long stretches of time. Sometimes as many as 40 races a year and be on LASIX?

How can it be as bad as most of you seem to think?

Any of you have medical degrees? (With Tom, it's did you graduate HS?)

How can so many of you think LASIX is that bad if it can be used every week in Harness racing without ill effects?

Answer that.

[Tom]

If you don't know, maybe you are playing the wrong game.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

I would recommend viewing the recent "Welfare & Safety of the Horse Summit" video, particularly the 2:30 panel on Integrity and Security. https://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/W...Wss_agenda.asp

You will find more and more tracks are installing stable surveillance as well as using Safety Stewards.

Safety Stewards, who along with the state vets do pre-race exams, are in the barns every morning.

If the state vet or steward notices a dehydrated horse, I'm confident they would have a discussion with the trainer or groom and then notify the racing stewards so the horse be scratched in the same way a lame horse or sick horse would be scratched.

It's cuckoo day at PA.

I'll be sharing the fact there are "Safety Stewards" going from stall to stall around the country with my trainer friends. That's a good one.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by ubercapper

I haven't seen any articles or studies discussing the effect of prophylactic administration of IV Lasix measured by pain/discomfort in horses that haven't had EIPH vs any potential benefit of IV Lasix.

Specifically, I don't think vets have ever been specifically asked the question "Is the administration of IV Lasix painful or uncomfortable to a horse."

That needs to be part of the discussion as well considering both sides state the health and welfare of the horse comes first.

I will start asking that question when I encounter a vet. You are welcome to do the same. Then we can share our results.

As far as your opinion humans don't react the same way to medications, point me to the basis in fact that proves horse's don't react to IV Lasix the same as humans.

Until then, my empirical evidence of how IV Lasix makes a human feel and my being told (by horse owners) horses feel pain and discomfort as we do will is what I have to go on.

I would be open to the experience of other people who may have had IV Lasix to concur or disagree with my statement it is uncomfortable to the point of being painful in humans but I'm pretty confident that is the majority experience after having discussed the topic with a number of doctors and nurses.

I'll take one Bramlage, and you can have your personal experience.

I win.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I win.

Not for much longer you won't be, if you keep this bullshit up.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Not for much longer you won't be, if you keep this bullshit up.

I’m terrified.

You’re one of the worst offenders around here. That’s called hypocrisy.

[Tom]

No, it's called ownership.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

It's cuckoo day at PA.

I'll be sharing the fact there are "Safety Stewards" going from stall to stall around the country with my trainer friends. That's a good one.

From the CHRB website:

Safety stewards are assigned to each racetrack to focus rules and procedures designed to insure the health and safety of racehorses. This responsibility requires safety stewards to spend considerable time in the stable areas and race track monitoring environmental safety and proper treatment of horses. Dangerous working conditions and mistreatment of horses is not tolerated.

In fact, I think one of the members of this message board served in this capacity in the past.

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

From the CHRB website:

Safety stewards are assigned to each racetrack to focus rules and procedures designed to insure the health and safety of racehorses. This responsibility requires safety stewards to spend considerable time in the stable areas and race track monitoring environmental safety and proper treatment of horses. Dangerous working conditions and mistreatment of horses is not tolerated.

In fact, I think one of the members of this message board served in this capacity in the past.

Thanks for that. I posted the URL from the Welfare & Safety of the Horse Summit earlier in the thread which included a good deal of the discussion about safety stewards as well as video clips from the barns.

It was enlightening (to say the least) to see the level of surveillance as well as to hear how proactive the state vets and safety stewards are at the tracks they serve. Some of them are retired jockeys such as Luis Juaregui and they really care about maintaining integrity on the backside.

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I'll take one Bramlage, and you can have your personal experience.

I win.

Do you know Dr. Bramlage personally?

Can you cite a quote from him on the topic of whether horses feel pain and discomfort following IV Lasix?

Since I live in Lexington and see Dr. Bramlage quite a bit I will ask him directly whether horses feel the pain and discomfort of IV Lasix and I will report his response on this thread whether it agrees with my previously stated position or not.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Tom

No, it's called ownership.

BAZINGA!

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

From the CHRB website:

Safety stewards are assigned to each racetrack to focus rules and procedures designed to insure the health and safety of racehorses. This responsibility requires safety stewards to spend considerable time in the stable areas and race track monitoring environmental safety and proper treatment of horses. Dangerous working conditions and mistreatment of horses is not tolerated.

In fact, I think one of the members of this message board served in this capacity in the past.

So CA. That’s hardly around the country. The statement was that if we do away from Lasix and horsemen withdraw their water instead, that all these safety stewards and revaluation stewards and state vets would stop horsemen from withdrawing water. I laughed at the idea that the people mentioned are going barn to barn and stall to stall every day. They’re not. Only the state vets come around, and on race morning. They’re only doing lameness exams. There’s no evidence that commissions and tracks are going to involve themselves and make regulations about water not being withdrawn. I can’t even imagine the uproar if they decide they’re going to start regulating hay and water.