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Old 06-17-2018, 08:50 PM   #346
Denny
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Phantom,

How about Bayern breaking inward and continuing to come in without restraint from the jockey,, taking out half the competition in the BC Classic, including the best horse Shared Belief.

Fail the first time against SB, try again.

How is that allowed to be legitimate behaviour in a race?

Last edited by Denny; 06-17-2018 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:31 PM   #347
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Good thing there's this site (thank you PA) that allows people to speak freely and not let these things get buried by the Industry.

They (industry) hope that by not doing anything or saying anything, it will all be forgotten in a week or two.

We need to hold their feet to the fire.

Thanks to all here willing to do so - and not let it go this time!
Even if we don't forget these controversies in a week or two...another troubling incident is liable to soon come up, to divert our attention. So...the industry wins either way.
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Old 06-17-2018, 11:09 PM   #348
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Phantom,

How about Bayern breaking inward and continuing to come in without restraint from the jockey,, taking out half the competition in the BC Classic, including the best horse Shared Belief.

Fail the first time against SB, try again.

How is that allowed to be legitimate behaviour in a race?
It was vomit inducing. On exactly zero planets with people that have an IQ over 40 would Bayern not be DQ'd.

You have to love the explanation on that. The stewards actually said "it didn't affect any runner's chance of a better placing". In other words, all that handicapping that you horseplayers do, and focusing on bad breaks, etc, is meaningless. The stewards know more than you about the importance of the break and early position. You people are morons for thinking anything that happens in the first furlong matters (says California stewards).

In that race, the early action specifically and materially affected the placing of more than half the field in a myriad of ways.

You can't even dignify that idiocy without wearing a red nose and oversized shoes.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:35 AM   #349
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When we consider the above...how can we justify wagering even a thin dime in this game? Who is left to instill "integrity" into this game...when this is the prevailing attitude of the "industry"?
I’ve never understood the logic behind this suspicion. How many races do you have to throw to darken the form enough to raise the odds to the point for the one bet at a substantial amount/risk to make up for all the 10% purse bonuses you lost? Or 100% of the purse if you own the horse?

Add to that negative the risk of losing your owner and the horse through losses that should’ve been wins. Or risking the horse through teaching it to lose, and it could go off form or get injured at any time. Or diminishing the animal’s value.

So it doesn’t make sense to me, certainly not in top races, not in MSW and above. Only at the very bottom, and the guys who play at that level supposedly have few dimes to rub together but they’re master-minding a huge bet?
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:37 AM   #350
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Make up your mind.
First they were questions....in your own words:



That's it.
And so no you can't answer what SPECIFIC rule Justify violate.
The blinkers issue, which is the only legitimate gripe, is it even a rule in NYRA? Surely with your 25 years of experience you could tell what the rule number is? And how Justify violated it. And how the stewards allowed it?

Try adding "witty" to your Google searches - the word you are looking for is reality. You have an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. But don't try to hide behind 25 years of experience as some sort of justification for yours.
The real world deals with actual rules actually violated, and if you don't know which rules were broken, then your opinion is just that- yours.
The specific rule is to ride a horse to the best of your ability to win.

As for blinkers, has there been a response to that? The rules are pretty strict about on and off, and if the prigram’s been printed, it’s hard to change what the program says. You can declare blinkers off at entry but if it was even the track’s fault and the horse is in the program with blinkers on, you have to wear the blinkers.

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Old 06-18-2018, 09:42 AM   #351
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Make up your mind.
First they were questions....in your own words:



That's it.
And so no you can't answer what SPECIFIC rule Justify violate.
The blinkers issue, which is the only legitimate gripe, is it even a rule in NYRA? Surely with your 25 years of experience you could tell what the rule number is? And how Justify violated it. And how the stewards allowed it?

Try adding "witty" to your Google searches - the word you are looking for is reality. You have an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. But don't try to hide behind 25 years of experience as some sort of justification for yours.
The real world deals with actual rules actually violated, and if you don't know which rules were broken, then your opinion is just that- yours.

Q. And so no you can't answer what SPECIFIC rule Justify violate.

A. I never said Justify violated ANY rule. Are you delusional? You just make it up as you go. And of course, you add an insult along the way. You read what you WANT to see, not what is actually in front of you.

Q. The blinkers issue, which is the only legitimate gripe, is it even a rule in NYRA? Surely with your 25 years of experience you could tell what the rule number is?

A. So I need to prove it to you. Then what, you pretend it was sarcasm ?

And if was the only legitimate gripe, why did the Stewards question Geroux the other day about his ride???

Here is some sarcasm. No Tom, there is no rule about it anywhere. Trainers and owners just decide whatever they want and the public never knows about it or only when they feel like telling them. And that person in the paddock, called a paddock judge, isn't checking the equipment on each horse before they go to the track for the protection of the customers, they are drawing little pictures of each horse.

None of these are rules, I just made them up. Trainers can instruct riders to stiff their horse or burn their horse up trying to compromise another horse and in doing so, ride with no effort to win whatsoever. They can screw the public anytime they want to . Riders can do anything they want in a race and if it includes screwing everyone that bet on their mount, too bad. Get em next time. It's perfectly legal. Equipment can be added or taken off whenever anybody wants to . Now I know I have just given you material for your next cute little monologue with this so when you cut and paste it, be sure and include the part that says it is sarcasm.


Q. And how Justify violated it.


A. I Never said he did. I never said Justify did anything wrong. I said that the trainer, an owner, the blks off question which could be the trainer, Stewards, or someone along the chain that would carry that info and a jockey are in question. Not just to me but to plenty of people in this forum.

If you would read and comprehend what I wrote you would see and understand that I was talking about Restoring Hope.
Wait, let ME ask the next question. What's that have to do with Justify?
Nothing oh gifted one, it has to do with a possible rules violation and because the announcement was made well after the betting started, I would think the people that placed bets on the race would be entitled to an answer as to why the change was not announced sooner or on the program or better still, not on the post position draw slip that is posted here in PA.

My previous post is below. Read it real slowly. Let it sink in. And of course, find another way to insult me while showing everyone that you read what you want to read instead of what I wrote.

Lastly, I am not hiding behind anything Tom. I am showing customers that they deserve answers to questions about what plenty in here are asking about. You are advocating for anybody that has questions pertaining to actual rules to prove it or shut up. I find that, along with your selective reading incredibly sad.


Here it comes...

1. Were instructions given to Noble Indy's rider to use his horse to outrun or pressure Justify at all costs with no regard to winning and or to aid another horses chances of winning?

2. Were instructions given to Restoring Hope's rider to use his horse in a manner that compromised his chances of winning?

3. Did the rider of Restoring Hope ride in such a manner as to willfully compromise his mounts chances of winning to aid another horses chances of winning?

4. Was the late change in Restoring Hope's blks. to "OFF" stated at time of entry or within a time period allowed in NY?

5. Why was there no announcement of the blinker change until approx. 1pm the day of the race which was well after the betting had started ?

These are 5 questions that speak to actual rules of racing which are put in place to protect the public.

They should be answered to the public, so as to assure that their best interests are being considered.

Whether Justify would have won anyway or Noble Indy wasn't fast enough or anything else is opinion. And while it is great to discuss these things, there should be no wondering when it comes to the integrity of the game.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:45 PM   #352
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You are whining endlessly about no rule being broken.
Drama queen.

I referred the the "list of rule" YOU posted, then changed your mind to call them question, now you never said anyone violated anything.

Seriously, do you have a clue what you are talking about?
What did you do for 25 years at the track - sell picks at the gate?

No need to reply - you will only change the topic again.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:01 PM   #353
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I’ve never understood the logic behind this suspicion. How many races do you have to throw to darken the form enough to raise the odds to the point for the one bet at a substantial amount/risk to make up for all the 10% purse bonuses you lost? Or 100% of the purse if you own the horse?

Add to that negative the risk of losing your owner and the horse through losses that should’ve been wins. Or risking the horse through teaching it to lose, and it could go off form or get injured at any time. Or diminishing the animal’s value.

So it doesn’t make sense to me, certainly not in top races, not in MSW and above. Only at the very bottom, and the guys who play at that level supposedly have few dimes to rub together but they’re master-minding a huge bet?
Whoever said that "logic" prevails in this game? Years ago, it was "logically reasoned" that no acts of drug-cheating would be carried out by the 'elite' members of the training community...because it would make no sense to jeopardize a thriving training career just to make a few extra bucks. Cheating was thought to be taking place only at the "minor tracks"...where the trainers were struggling to put food on the table. Well...reality turned out to be quite a bit different...NO?

Whenever I see a horse in contending position down the stretch, whose jockey isn't on his belly while giving the horse at least a vigorous hand ride...then I harbor dark suspicions about the intentions of the connections of such a horse...regardless of how "illogical" such a plan might seem. And, sadly...I see this scenario play itself out a lot more frequently than it should.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:38 PM   #354
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Whoever said that "logic" prevails in this game? Years ago, it was "logically reasoned" that no acts of drug-cheating would be carried out by the 'elite' members of the training community...because it would make no sense to jeopardize a thriving training career just to make a few extra bucks. Cheating was thought to be taking place only at the "minor tracks"...where the trainers were struggling to put food on the table. Well...reality turned out to be quite a bit different...NO?

Whenever I see a horse in contending position down the stretch, whose jockey isn't on his belly while giving the horse at least a vigorous hand ride...then I harbor dark suspicions about the intentions of the connections of such a horse...regardless of how "illogical" such a plan might seem. And, sadly...I see this scenario play itself out a lot more frequently than it should.
And the problem is the stewards don't investigate and set down jockeys and trainers nearly as much as they should for failing to make a reasonable effort to win.

It seems to me that you can argue that horse racing created a culture that gave rise to the tactics in the Belmont. Imagine a different culture where jockeys and trainers get suspensions and fines all the time for failing to try to win races. To the point where they are scared. Now in that world, what does Baffert instruct Geroux to do in the Belmont?
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:54 PM   #355
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You are whining endlessly about no rule being broken.
Drama queen.

I referred the the "list of rule" YOU posted, then changed your mind to call them question, now you never said anyone violated anything.

Seriously, do you have a clue what you are talking about?
What did you do for 25 years at the track - sell picks at the gate?

No need to reply - you will only change the topic again.
What?

You are obviously struggling to comprehend what I wrote in my posts and when shown the error in your thinking, you dismiss it and attack me personally.

No need to reply - you will only change the topic again.

Below is a link for you as well. Good luck with it.

http://www.job-descriptions.org/racetrack-steward.html

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Old 06-18-2018, 01:56 PM   #356
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And the problem is the stewards don't investigate and set down jockeys and trainers nearly as much as they should for failing to make a reasonable effort to win.

It seems to me that you can argue that horse racing created a culture that gave rise to the tactics in the Belmont. Imagine a different culture where jockeys and trainers get suspensions and fines all the time for failing to try to win races. To the point where they are scared. Now in that world, what does Baffert instruct Geroux to do in the Belmont?
IMO...the main task of the sport's "governing bodies" isn't to police the sport and punish the offenders. The most important thing seems to be to protect the "image" of the game as much as they can...for fear that they might otherwise lose those much-pampered "Whales" that the game so relies on. If the stewards start stirring the pot by bringing attention to all the "irregularities" in the game...then the Whales might take their millions to some other "investment" arena. Better to just put the blindfolds on, I guess...
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:58 PM   #357
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And the problem is the stewards don't investigate and set down jockeys and trainers nearly as much as they should for failing to make a reasonable effort to win.

It seems to me that you can argue that horse racing created a culture that gave rise to the tactics in the Belmont. Imagine a different culture where jockeys and trainers get suspensions and fines all the time for failing to try to win races. To the point where they are scared. Now in that world, what does Baffert instruct Geroux to do in the Belmont?

Exactly !
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:05 PM   #358
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IMO...the main task of the sport's "governing bodies" isn't to police the sport and punish the offenders. The most important thing seems to be to protect the "image" of the game as much as they can...for fear that they might otherwise lose those much-pampered "Whales" that the game so relies on. If the stewards start stirring the pot by bringing attention to all the "irregularities" in the game...then the Whales might take their millions to some other "investment" arena. Better to just put the blindfolds on, I guess...

Here is a link to what the Stewards job description is supposed to be. But I hear you Thaskalos. Not sure if it is job security or what. But no matter the reason, it is a disgrace IMO.
This is what I have been trying to explain to you know who but it just won't click.

http://www.job-descriptions.org/racetrack-steward.html

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Old 06-18-2018, 02:08 PM   #359
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Ruffian,
There's no point trying to make sense to Tom.
Some people have selective hearing - Tom has selective reading disability.
Don't get aggravated, and waste your time with him.
You can't get anywhere, anyway.
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:15 PM   #360
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Ruffian,
There's no point trying to make sense to Tom.
Some people have selective hearing - Tom has selective reading disability.
Don't get aggravated, and waste your time with him.
You can't get anywhere, anyway.
Point taken.
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