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Old 06-17-2018, 01:48 PM   #331
Tom
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DQ horses and fine jockey who have not violated any rules.
Good plan to enhance the integrity of the game.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:54 PM   #332
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Google "sarcasm."
Then Google "clue"

I am posting about the whining in this thread, not the rules of racing.
BTW, what SPECIFIC rule was violated?

Oh Tom, you are so witty.

The five rules I listed, while not copied and pasted, are the rules that I raced under for 25 years.

They are simple and clear and every rider and trainer knows all about them.

Not opinion as someone wrongfully said, but rules.

Maybe scroll back and have another go at them.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:01 PM   #333
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Oh Tom, you are so witty.

The five rules I listed, while not copied and pasted, are the rules that I raced under for 25 years.

They are simple and clear and every rider and trainer knows all about them.

Not opinion as someone wrongfully said, but rules.

Maybe scroll back and have another go at them.
I am not sure how a horse like Restoring Hope could have had a better chance to win if ridden differently. He got a stalking 2w trip right off a horse many suspected was burnt up, not good enough, or distance challanged, on what many said was a slow pace.

He should have been taken off the pace?


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Old 06-17-2018, 02:09 PM   #334
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I've been a die hard horse racing fan since about the age of ten. I'm sixty now. (You do the math.)

In a thousand lifetimes I cannot for one second fathom Secretariat's connections orchestrating the kind of rider tactics being talked about in this thread.

Maybe it was a different era. But I can tell you one thing about that era.

Sportsmanship mattered.

When I watch video of Secretariat's Belmont: I see the riders of two great horses throw down. Each doing everything in their power to take it to the other.

Secretariat rose to the challenge and gave us the performance of a lifetime.

When I watch video of Justify's Belmont: I see Restoring Hope. A horse full of run going into the first turn doing his level best to do what he was bred to do.

He doesn't know Justify is undefeated. He doesn't know Justify is running for the Triple Crown.

Restoring Hope only knows one thing. Justify is in front. He accelerates because something deep inside says that he, not Justify, belongs in front.

In that instant Florent Geroux realizes what his mount is about to do. And the video shows him doing everything in his power to stop his horse from doing it.

Geroux grabs the reigns hard enough to snap Restoring Hope's head back - and steers his mount to the far outside.

Whether intentional or not, Geroux's actions end up creating a seal. His tactics effectively prevent the other riders from challenging Justify until much later in the race.

In my mind Justify was the best horse in the race and likely would have won - even if another horse had laid down a serious pace challenge.

But that wasn't allowed to happen. As another poster put it several pages back: "Bad optics."

As a die hard horse racing fan and bettor I can't help but feel the sport was cheapened because of rider tactics in this year's Belmont.

The video of Geroux grabbing the reigns going into the first turn and steering Restoring Hope to the far outside is enough to convince me he wasn't riding to obtain the best possible placing.

I strongly suspect he grabbed his mount and swung to the far outside because the last thing in the world he wanted was to put Justify's Triple Crown bid at risk.

In my mind a true sportsman competes. He gives his level best. Every single time.

Imo, what Geroux did is pretty much the opposite of that.

Make no mistake. Secretariat's Belmont was run in a different era.

Once upon a time sportsmanship mattered.



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I don't know if this sport was ever a legitimate display of "sportsmanship". As far back as I can remember, trainers have been "darkening the horses' form"...so they could cash lucrative bets at the expense of the unsuspecting "customers". GREED has been the overriding motivation in this game, IMO...not "sportsmanship".
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:23 PM   #335
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I am not sure how a horse like Restoring Hope could have had a better chance to win if ridden differently. He got a stalking 2w trip right off a horse many suspected was burnt up, not good enough, or distance challanged, on what many said was a slow pace.

He should have been taken off the pace?

Not the point.

I am talking only about rules of racing that are in place to protect the public.

That's it.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:40 PM   #336
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I don't know if this sport was ever a legitimate display of "sportsmanship". As far back as I can remember, trainers have been "darkening the horses' form"...so they could cash lucrative bets at the expense of the unsuspecting "customers". GREED has been the overriding motivation in this game, IMO...not "sportsmanship".
If true, that would be a rule violation as would any owner, jockey, stable employee or anyone else that tried to manipulate the form of a horse at the detriment of the public.
If the perception of that act was recognized by enough people that support the industry the Stewards would be remiss not to investigate it.
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Old 06-17-2018, 03:52 PM   #337
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A while back I had a conversation about whales with someone who is a member of the TRA 20/20 Committee.

Most of our conversation centered around tote integrity. In his mind the tote system has always been 100% secure and in my mind the idea of that being true was and continues to be dubious at best. (But that's a topic for any of several recent threads and moves us away from what's being talked about in this thread.)

One of the more interesting things he told me (it's something I see as related to this thread) is that many of "our" barns bet and they are the "only" ones who should be winning at this game.

He went on to say that horseplayers who win at this game are "stealing."

(Note that the quotes in the above two sentences are emphasizing his words not mine.)

I came away with a sense that many of this industry's decision makers think it's perfectly OK for barns that bet to put one over on us horseplayers. Not just every now and then. But as standing operating procedure and every single race day.

Not that I like it...

And not that there aren't rules against it...

Rules that for some reason are seldom enforced...

But as a horseplayer, of course I know that form darkening has always been part of the game.

But in my mind that's not what I was trying to say with my rant about the lack of sportsmanship in today's game.

Or is it?

In my mind, when you get to the level where history itself is on the line:

You 100 percent need to enforce the rules.

If not then?

When?


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Old 06-17-2018, 04:40 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
A while back I had a conversation about whales with someone who is a member of the TRA 20/20 Committee.

Most of our conversation centered around tote integrity. In his mind the tote system has always been 100% secure and in my mind the idea of that being true was and continues to be dubious at best. (But that's a topic for any of several recent threads and moves us away from what's being talked about in this thread.)

One of the more interesting things he told me (it's something I see as related to this thread) is that many of "our" barns bet and they are the "only" ones who should be winning at this game.

He went on to say that horseplayers who win at this game are "stealing."


(Note that the quotes in the above two sentences are emphasizing his words not mine.)

I came away with a sense that many of this industry's decision makers think it's perfectly OK for barns that bet to put one over on us horseplayers. Not just every now and then. But as standing operating procedure and every single race day.

Not that I like it...

And not that there aren't rules against it...

Rules that for some reason are seldom enforced...

But as a horseplayer, of course I know that form darkening has always been part of the game.

But in my mind that's not what I was trying to say with my rant about the lack of sportsmanship in today's game.

Or is it?

In my mind, when you get to the level where history itself is on the line:

You 100 percent need to enforce the rules.

If not then?

When?


-jp

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When we consider the above...how can we justify wagering even a thin dime in this game? Who is left to instill "integrity" into this game...when this is the prevailing attitude of the "industry"?
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:42 PM   #339
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Oh Tom, you are so witty.

The five rules I listed, while not copied and pasted, are the rules that I raced under for 25 years.

They are simple and clear and every rider and trainer knows all about them.

Not opinion as someone wrongfully said, but rules.

Maybe scroll back and have another go at them.

Make up your mind.
First they were questions....in your own words:
Quote:
These are 5 questions that speak to actual rules of racing which are put in place to protect the public.
Quote:
I am talking only about rules of racing that are in place to protect the public.
That's it.
And so no you can't answer what SPECIFIC rule Justify violate.
The blinkers issue, which is the only legitimate gripe, is it even a rule in NYRA? Surely with your 25 years of experience you could tell what the rule number is? And how Justify violated it. And how the stewards allowed it?

Try adding "witty" to your Google searches - the word you are looking for is reality. You have an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. But don't try to hide behind 25 years of experience as some sort of justification for yours.
The real world deals with actual rules actually violated, and if you don't know which rules were broken, then your opinion is just that- yours.
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:51 PM   #340
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When we consider the above...how can we justify wagering even a thin dime in this game? Who is left to instill "integrity" into this game...when this is the prevailing attitude of the "industry"?
Horse racing must be controlled by Federal government regulation. Period.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:25 PM   #341
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My previous posts came from a fan of the game. These posts will address this issue from a bettor's standpoint.

Rabbit vs. Blocker -- If you are a handicapper and can't conclude the likelihood of one runner going out to keep the pace honest (i.e. Noble Indy) to ensure a fast pace to help another of the same trainer's runners (i.e. Vino Rosso) then you can't handicap and should quit. I don't care what Repole said, you should have known there was a very good chance Noble Indy was going to run with Justify. Nothing at all wrong with this. Again, it is NOT AGAINST THE RULES BOTH SPECIFICALLY AND IN THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES to allow a horse to run fast early, middle and/or late. Nothing wrong with this. You must have seen dozens of sent runners that keep going and win. Well within bounds and not hidden to the betting public.

A blocker, on the other hand, is completely hidden from the public and is, by far, short of performance enhancing drugs, the worst thing to taint the outcome of a race. It should not be allowed and should be dealt with. There is no debate whether Baffert instructed Geroux to do this. No Debate. None. Baffert did it four times that I can recall:

1. 2016 Travers with American Freedom (owner Gary/Mary West) purposely floated out from the 2 post, cascading the entire field together, opened the red sea on the rail which helped Arrogate wire the field. (V Espinoza)

2. 2017 Hollywood Gold Cup with American Freedom (owner Gary/Mary West) came out purposely and again cascaded the field which helped eliminate the main speed, Follow Me Crev, and led to a win by stablemate Cupid. (V Espinoza)

3. 2014 Awesome Again with Sky Kingdom (owner Westrock) which floated Shared Belief out to the parking lot and allowed Fed Biz to roll up the rail. Shared Belief won by a neck over Fed Biz. (V Espinoza)

4. 2018 Belmont with Restoring Hope (owner Gary/Mary West) took out half the field leaving an aqueduct on the inside for Justify. (F Geroux)

Watch the replays of all four, both pan shots and head on, and you see if you can convince yourself that each of these are strictly coincidental and not by design.

Baffert instructed Geroux to break fast and stay wide and keep all the runners to his outside as wide as possible BUT, in doing so, should in no way outrun Justify. So when Geroux did his job, floating others wide, he was going too fast on Restoring Hope and he used ground loss (i.e. 6 wide turn) to slow him up and not challenge Justify. The whole thing is absolute garbage from an absolute garbage human being. Anyone that would destroy the integrity of the sport despite all the sport has done for him is a piece of garbage. I said it before, if someone is willing to blatantly (and frequently) cheat in broad daylight in this fashion, there is absolutely no question they are willing to cheat tenfold in the mask of darkness.
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:10 PM   #342
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I've watched video of these races.

Sadly, I suspect you may be right.


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Old 06-17-2018, 08:20 PM   #343
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I know he's right.

Baffert is a damn cheat. They let him do it over and over.

Crooked game.
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:24 PM   #344
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I don't know if this sport was ever a legitimate display of "sportsmanship". As far back as I can remember, trainers have been "darkening the horses' form"...so they could cash lucrative bets at the expense of the unsuspecting "customers". GREED has been the overriding motivation in this game, IMO...not "sportsmanship".
We all know this stuff happens from time to time but i think now with purses generally high and the breed more fragile it may happen even less than in the past.
More of a concern to me is the "claimed" part of the game which makes handicapping my favorite type of races useless.
(check out todays card at Parx for many recent examples, all there in the PPs)
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:25 PM   #345
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Good thing there's this site (thank you PA) that allows people to speak freely and not let these things get buried by the Industry.

They (industry) hope that by not doing anything or saying anything, it will all be forgotten in a week or two.

We need to hold their feet to the fire.

Thanks to all here willing to do so - and not let it go this time!

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