Tongue Ties - a betting edge?

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Has anybody done any research about trainers use of tongue ties. I suppose certain 'slick' conditioners use this apparatus to improve his or her charges performance,many times not seen by the public.

From what i understand this piece of equipment is a significant performance enhancement device that can offer a tremendous edge to the horseplayer who can spot this in the warm-up.

any comments would be appreciated. thanks zappi

[hurrikane]

If it were legal and would enhance perfomance wouldn't you think everyone would be using it?

[TonyK@HSH]

Kane,

Tongue ties are legal and used regularly by most trainers. The are an aid to prevent a horse from slipping their tongue over the bit, thus cutting off air supply.
I think Zappi was wondering if anyone tracks trainers running without a tongue tie for a few starts then adding it for a 'go' effort. Zappi, I am aware of no such statistic available to the public.

TonyK

[RXB]

I bet four horses this weekend; they all ran as though they had swallowed their tongues somewhere between the 1/2 and 1/4 poles.

[hurrikane]

thanks Tony,

I knew what they were. I wasn't aware they were in use that much. You can see them on horses at the track. I have never, nor no of anyone, that's tracks it.

That would beg the question. Who says it is a 'go' factor and why?

[Achilles]

The only person I ever heard of who tracked this equipment change was Jim Selvidge, who wrote Hold Your Horses, one of the first handicapping books I ever read. He did it back in the '70's at Pacific NW tracks, and took advantage when a trainer who had success with the device, would switch back to it after running his horse without it in a series of losing races. Jim's significant other is or was Trillis Parker of Horses Talk, It Pays to Listen fame. As far as I know it is not required to report tongue ties, or ask stewards' permission to change; although, I have seen tongue "straps" mentioned in Canadian programs.

[TonyK@HSH]

Kane,

My comment on a 'go' race was in response to Zappi's scenario of a trainer using or not using a tongue based on intent to win.
My experience is that once a trainer adds this equipment they continue to use it. Most trainers pay attention to this when claiming and a few seem to use one on every starter.
But my feelings on trainer intent seem to be in the minority. I believe that most horses are sent to the post with the trainer expecting them to run to the best of their ability, the primary exception behind horses returning from layups. Some barns simply don't train hard for return efforts.

TonyK

[kenwoodallpromos]

At one time DRF tried listing rham but I think that did not last long.
Tongue ties are used when the airway is partially blocked by the tomgue (palate). Sometimes horses will stop or be eased and have one added later which may help a big fader.
There are some references to the problem online; a myectomy helps sometimes.

[kenwoodallpromos]

dorsal displacement of the soft palate: a condition in which the soft palate, located on the floor of the airway near the larynx, moves up into the airway. A minor displacement causes a gurgling sound during exercise while in more serious cases the palate can block the airway. This is sometimes known as "choking down" or "swallowing the tongue" but the tongue does not actually block the airway. The base of the tongue is connected to the larynx, of which the epiglottis is a part. When the epiglottis is retracted, the soft palate can move up into the airway (dorsal displacement). This condition can sometimes be managed with equipment such a figure eight noseband or a tongue-tie. In more extreme cases, surgery might be required, most commonly a "myectomy" (excision of the muscles that retract the larynx).

[kenwoodallpromos]

dorsal displacement of the soft palate: a condition in which the soft palate, located on the floor of the airway near the larynx, moves up into the airway. A minor displacement causes a gurgling sound during exercise while in more serious cases the palate can block the airway. This is sometimes known as "choking down" or "swallowing the tongue" but the tongue does not actually block the airway. The base of the tongue is connected to the larynx, of which the epiglottis is a part. When the epiglottis is retracted, the soft palate can move up into the airway (dorsal displacement). This condition can sometimes be managed with equipment such a figure eight noseband or a tongue-tie. In more extreme cases, surgery might be required, most commonly a "myectomy" (excision of the muscles that retract the larynx).
And try this:
http://www.horsestalk.com/body1.htm

[so.cal.fan]

I remember reading about James Selvidge's theory.
My husband works in the paddock at Hollywood Park, and part of his job is to distribute tongue ties to the trainers.....they are always brand new and in packages....he is the only one who handles them before giving them to the trainers after they get in the paddock.
No possible way, Selvidge's theory is true....at least not at Hollywood Park, Santa Anita, Del Mar or Fairplex.....
Now, Selvidge is from Washington State, I think....we sure don't know what goes on there, or for that matter anywhere out of So. Cal.

[hurrikane]

So ca,

I"m confused (go figure). How does your husband handing out tongue ties disprove selvagis theory?

My opinion is trainers are not that smart. or devious. If they thought the damn thing would win they would use it every time.

[so.cal.fan]

When the trainers are already in the paddock, and they get handed a new tongue tie, it would be pretty damn difficult to "doctor" it with some illegal substance, which is what Selvidge was implying.

[parlay]

Thanks for bringing this topic up. When i started playing 30 years ago this quickly became one of my favorite angles. The ontario jockey club, now WEG, required this information be reported to the public. The track program would list 3 very important things that provided many winning wagers.
The first was "tongue tie on". The second was "blinkers on/off". The third was a list of all workouts the previous day. In those days workout reports were published in the form regularly but of course a work the day proir to the race would only be available to the public in the program.Many trainers worked their charges the day before a "go" with a tighten the screws blowout.
I called the WEG last year to find out why they no longer reported tongue tie changes to the public. To my disbelief it is supposedly because they cant afford to pay someone to monitor these things in the paddock!!!
One of the great benefits of being at the track is being able to attend the paddock.IF YOU ARE OBSERVANT YOU WILL CATCH SOME UNREPORTED EQUIPMENT CHANGES.If you notice a horse wearing a tongue tie look at his previous running line, did he stop abruptly and back through the field. I caught A. Katryan with this move last year. I even asked him as the horses entered the walking ring whether the tie had been on in the last race. He couldn't look me in the eye when he answered, I RAN TO THE WINDOWS. Take the time to visit the track web site before u finalize your opinion on any horse and look up those "day before a race workouts".

[Suff]

You can take a lenghth of Cloth. 2 inch's wide by 12 inch's long and use it as a Tongue Tie. I've seen them do it when they send them out to the Excersice track. Bit Changes, and Bridle Changes out number Tongue tie changes 5-1. Tounge Ties are guess's and hunch's by trainers. No one really has much of an idea how often the tongue blocks air flow. Going from a straight bit to a Figure Eight has a more profound effect on a Horse than a Tongue Tie. Thats done all the time...and I never get that information.

Tack changes.... and by tack I mean the whole setup.. Bridle, Bit , Yoke, Blinkers, wraps, shoes, saddle etc etc... needs to be more transparent.