RIP to Mongolian Groom and CA Racing

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Katewerk

It seems like an idle threat -- until you consider the strides California politicians have made in eliminating sanitation and electricity.

It's an idle threat in the sense that the Senate majority leader is from Kentucky and is unlikely to allow legislation to get to the floor.

But it may be indicative of how many politicians in California who do have some power may feel.

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

It would set a dangerous precedent if backside workers could get a horse scratched with no authority other than their own estimation of their expertise.

I wasn't under the impression that backside workers would be allowed to get a horse scratched, but certainly, they are voices that should be heard and listened to in a successful business model.

I remember when Toyota's business was considered *unorthodox* by American standards because they didn't run their business model entirely by top-down hierarchy alone........they went out to the manufacturing floor and got input from the workers who were actually putting the vehicles together hands-on.

They viewed those employees not just as pairs of hands but as knowledge workers who accumulate the wisdom of experience—on the company’s front lines.

(this very succssful model and culture has since been adopted not just by other auto makers, but in hospitals and mailing/shipping giants as well. )

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by clicknow

I wasn't under the impression that backside workers would be allowed to get a horse scratched, but certainly, they are voices that should be heard and listened to in a successful business model.

I remember when Toyota's business was considered *unorthodox* by American standards because they didn't run their business model entirely by top-down hierarchy alone........they went out to the manufacturing floor and got input from the workers who were actually putting the vehicles together hands-on.

They viewed those employees not just as pairs of hands but as knowledge workers who accumulate the wisdom of experience—on the company’s front lines.

(this very succssful model and culture has since been adopted not just by other auto makers, but in hospitals and mailing/shipping giants as well. )

If you "see something, say something".

Reasonable to be able to speak to a designated outrider or vet assistant, who can then relay reasonable concerns for consideration.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

But it may be indicative of how many politicians in California who do have some power may feel.

That's a good point.

It also comes across as a Strong, Caring, Ethical leader to the public.

But, if you have any understanding of the reality, it comes across as either Grandstanding or Ignorance (or some combination)...



We just had a weekend where the highest quality of care was given to the horses, and the racing surfaces.

They actually did a great job this weekend. That's about as good as we can possibly do.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

That's a good point.

It also comes across as a Strong, Caring, Ethical leader to the public.

But, if you have any understanding of the reality, it comes across as either Grandstanding or Ignorance (or some combination)...



We just had a weekend where the highest quality of care was given to the horses, and the racing surfaces.

They actually did a great job this weekend. That's about as good as we can possibly do.

No, it wasn't. We failed Mongolian Groom. He was showing that he had something wrong with the hind left leg yet he was allowed to run. He died because we did not do the best we can do, and that shouldn't happen.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

No, it wasn't. We failed Mongolian Groom. He was showing that he had something wrong with the hind left leg yet he was allowed to run. He died because we did not do the best we can do, and that shouldn't happen.

He wasn't 'allowed to run' with a known problem to his left hind...

That's the narrative in your head.

Is your stance that they knowingly raced an unsound horse?

If he actually had a problem before the race, in his left hind, then they missed it. Horses are going to slip through the cracks, regardless of the effort made. A results-based analysis doesn't work for something like a Breeders Cup weekend.

You can do a great job and lose 5 horses. You can do a bad job and lose zero.

They did a tremendous job this weekend. They deserve praise for this year's breeders' cup.

If you ever own horses or bet on horses, and the horses and track get care equivalent to what they got this weekend, be sure to appreciate your good fortune.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Question for the 'accidents happen and horses die' crowd - did you watch him warm up or his work leading into the race?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

He wasn't 'allowed to run' with a known problem to his left hind...

That's the narrative in your head.

Is your stance that they knowingly raced an unsound horse?

If he actually had a problem before the race, in his left hind, then they missed it. Horses are going to slip through the cracks, regardless of the effort made. A results-based analysis doesn't work for something like a Breeders Cup weekend.

You can do a great job and lose 5 horses. You can do a bad job and lose zero.

They did a tremendous job this weekend. They deserve praise for this year's breeders' cup.

If you ever own horses or bet on horses, and the horses and track get care equivalent to what they got this weekend, be sure to appreciate your good fortune.

It’s proven that he was failed. That is not debatable. The prof is out there for all to see.

I’m not going to gloss over a poorly done job as you insist on doing. It’d be laughable that you’re saying they deserve praise if it wasn’t such a sad commentary on your part and sad ending for the horse.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster

Question for the 'accidents happen and horses die' crowd - did you watch him warm up or his work leading into the race?

I saw it, and I can't tell.

It's possible that he was a little off. I mean, I know he broke down. If I keep re-watching it, I can kinda see what looks like he may be a little off. If that's not him changing between 'gaits'. If I keep re-watching it with my friends on twitter, and 9 of them (also watching and commenting after the race, when the lead dramatic story is MG) have already declared it 'obvious', then naturally it begins to look more definitive to me. How could they possibly have missed this??

Watch his notorious 1:02 work, and it looks perfectly fine, other than the saddle slipping a little.

For some reason many of the same experts who can tell subtle issues with stride, also cite this work as evidence and cause for a scratch, but exclude the mention from the trainer of the fact that the saddle slipped back.

Just because I can't personally tell from his 'lame' trotting video, and just because his workout video looks definitively fine, does not exclude the possibility that he actually did have a soundness problem. I just can't see it. I personally wouldn't have seen any reason to scratch the horse. Several vets who are better horseman than me also looked at him and could not tell.

He was either fine, or he had an underlying unsoundness that slipped through the cracks.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

It’s proven that he was failed. That is not debatable. The prof is out there for all to see.

I’m not going to gloss over a poorly done job as you insist on doing. It’d be laughable that you’re saying they deserve praise if it wasn’t such a sad commentary on your part and sad ending for the horse.

• Where is the proof that he was failed?
• How does a sad ending for a horse equate to a failed effort for Safety?

[The_Turf_Monster]

A horse should not have its two hind legs hitting at the same time. When that happens, it indicates that one of its hind legs has a problem, and the horse is trying to compensate for it. If I can see this from my couch, it boggles my mind that others on track couldn't see it. It's not hindsight, no pun intended, every horseplayer should be sight handicapping immediately before a race - it's the easiest way to both win money and avoid losing it

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster

A horse should not have its two hind legs hitting at the same time. When that happens, it indicates that one of its hind legs has a problem, and the horse is trying to compensate for it. If I can see this from my couch, it boggles my mind that others on track couldn't see it. It's not hindsight, no pun intended, every horseplayer should be sight handicapping immediately before a race - it's the easiest way to both win money and avoid losing it

or you could use your super powers for good, and prevent fatalities

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

• Where is the proof that he was failed?
• How does a sad ending for a horse equate to a failed effort for Safety?

How many times does this have to be repeated?

The horse was lame PRIOR to the race, and there are multiple videos of him on different days showing that he was off in the hind end.

That his trainer, his vet, and the BC vets all allowed this horse to run (I do not for a single second believe that any of the aforementioned did not know the horse was off in the hind, because I doubt any of them are that incompetent) was an obvious fail.

I can't say it any clearer than that.

[AlsoEligible]

I'm not that concerned with Feinstein's saber rattling, because it's just that. It's easy to call for "suspending racing at Santa Anita" when the track is already done racing until Christmas. If the Del Mar meet goes on as quietly as it did in the summer, this will fade back out of the public consciousness...until the next breakdown. Then another statement will be put out, and we'll go through the same cycle again.

What concerns me is that eventually someone (or a group like PETA or HorseRacingWrongs) will get tired of the cycle, and take matters into their own hands with a ballot initiative. Collecting signatures won't be an issue, and I believe they have until next July or August to go through the process of getting it on the ballot. That's plenty of time.

If that happens, it's curtains for CA, no doubt in my mind. All of the "but muh jobs and economic impact" arguments in the world won't sway voters when the other side can just show videos of gruesome breakdowns, green tarps, and horses in landfills, while asking the question "why are we doing this?"

The other (and arguably bigger) piece of the puzzle here is sports betting, which may also be on the 2020 ballot. There are already discussions in progress on who should be allowed to have sports wagering, with tracks, otbs, Indian casinos, and card rooms all fighting for the largest slices of the pie:

So far, there is no organized opposition to legalizing sports gambling in California, but the devil may be in the details.

“Where to do it is a big deal,” [State Senator] Dodd said.

Everyone seemingly wants a piece of the action, but the battle could come down to the state's 66 card rooms and 68 tribal casinos.

The tribes have been in an ongoing dispute with state regulators and card rooms and don't want any more competition. Steve Stallings, chairman of the California Nations Indian Gaming Association, declined FOX40's request for an interview.

Those interests would benefit tremendously if racing just happened to meet its demise during the same election...and they certainly have the money to help organize and fund such an initiative, even if it's largely behind the scenes while PETA or another group is the public face of it. They also carry a hell of a lot more political clout in this state than Belinda Stronach does.

That's where the future of California racing is going to be determined, imo. And I'm not very optimistic that it can survive both a PR battle on the public front, and a political battle in smoke-filled backrooms.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AlsoEligible

I'm not that concerned with Feinstein's saber rattling, because it's just that. It's easy to call for "suspending racing at Santa Anita" when the track is already done racing until Christmas. If the Del Mar meet goes on as quietly as it did in the summer, this will fade back out of the public consciousness...until the next breakdown. Then another statement will be put out, and we'll go through the same cycle again.

What concerns me is that eventually someone (or a group like PETA or HorseRacingWrongs) will get tired of the cycle, and take matters into their own hands with a ballot initiative. Collecting signatures won't be an issue, and I believe they have until next July or August to go through the process of getting it on the ballot. That's plenty of time.

If that happens, it's curtains for CA, no doubt in my mind. All of the "but muh jobs and economic impact" arguments in the world won't sway voters when the other side can just show videos of gruesome breakdowns, green tarps, and horses in landfills, while asking the question "why are we doing this?"

The other (and arguably bigger) piece of the puzzle here is sports betting, which may also be on the 2020 ballot. There are already discussions in progress on who should be allowed to have sports wagering, with tracks, otbs, Indian casinos, and card rooms all fighting for the largest slices of the pie:



Those interests would benefit tremendously if racing just happened to meet its demise during the same election...and they certainly have the money to help organize and fund such an initiative, even if it's largely behind the scenes while PETA or another group is the public face of it. They also carry a hell of a lot more political clout in this state than Belinda Stronach does.

That's where the future of California racing is going to be determined, imo. And I'm not very optimistic that it can survive both a PR battle on the public front, and a political battle in smoke-filled backrooms.

You are absolutely right about the rest of the gambling industry. They all view themselves as competing for the same gambling dollar, and would love to knock out a competitor such as live horse racing.

Indeed, in many ways, the industry has more to fear potentially from them than from PETA.