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Old 11-05-2018, 11:41 AM   #46
dilanesp
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Very few horses are without a problem of some sort. Any time you race a horse you are risking the horse's life. Just by owning and racing a horse you are implying that it is OK to risk its life. Only an idiot would apply the same standard to a $10,000 gelding as they would to a multi-million dollar stud prospect.
If you adopt a different standard, you are saying it is OK to slaughter the cheap ones but not the expensive ones.

And if that is horse racing's position, our sport should be banned.

There can only be one standard. Whatever it is, it applies to all horses.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:51 AM   #47
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If you adopt a different standard, you are saying it is OK to slaughter the cheap ones but not the expensive ones.

And if that is horse racing's position, our sport should be banned.

There can only be one standard. Whatever it is, it applies to all horses.

Just like the way all human lives are applied with a single standard of protection? Where's my secret service detail? It sucks but get real, there is a different standard from top of the game to the lowest rungs. Now I don't think that means actively putting a horse in danger out there to run, but a pimple on a stud prospect means retirement whereas a lot of other horses have to run through nagging things.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:24 PM   #48
dilanesp
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Just like the way all human lives are applied with a single standard of protection? Where's my secret service detail? It sucks but get real, there is a different standard from top of the game to the lowest rungs. Now I don't think that means actively putting a horse in danger out there to run, but a pimple on a stud prospect means retirement whereas a lot of other horses have to run through nagging things.
You don't get a secret service detail but it is definitely illegal for the police to refuse to protect you while protecting someone else.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:25 PM   #49
AndyC
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If you adopt a different standard, you are saying it is OK to slaughter the cheap ones but not the expensive ones.

And if that is horse racing's position, our sport should be banned.

There can only be one standard. Whatever it is, it applies to all horses.
Wow. You escalated this conversation from deciding between running and retiring to one of slaughtering. Not even remotely the same.
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Old 11-05-2018, 07:48 PM   #50
dilanesp
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Wow. You escalated this conversation from deciding between running and retiring to one of slaughtering. Not even remotely the same.
The point is there can't be two standards for what constitutes whether it is safe to run a horse.

If it is actually unsafe to continue to run Justify, it is also unsafe to continue to run any claimer with the same "injury", because each of those horses' lives is just as valuable and entitled to protection as Justify's.

If it is not unsafe to run a claimer after Justify's injury, then Justify was retired for illegitimate reasons and his owners should be punished in any manner available.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:35 PM   #51
Spalding No!
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The point is there can't be two standards for what constitutes whether it is safe to run a horse.

If it is actually unsafe to continue to run Justify, it is also unsafe to continue to run any claimer with the same "injury", because each of those horses' lives is just as valuable and entitled to protection as Justify's.

If it is not unsafe to run a claimer after Justify's injury, then Justify was retired for illegitimate reasons and his owners should be punished in any manner available.
From what was reported, Justify's injury was legitimate. It required time off to the extent that he would have been incapable of being ready to start again in 2018.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:45 PM   #52
AndyC
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The point is there can't be two standards for what constitutes whether it is safe to run a horse.

If it is actually unsafe to continue to run Justify, it is also unsafe to continue to run any claimer with the same "injury", because each of those horses' lives is just as valuable and entitled to protection as Justify's.

If it is not unsafe to run a claimer after Justify's injury, then Justify was retired for illegitimate reasons and his owners should be punished in any manner available.
You should spend some time on the backstretch and see how many horses are running injury or ailment free. Not very many of them. If racing were done using your standard it would cease to exist in a month.
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:19 AM   #53
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You should spend some time on the backstretch and see how many horses are running injury or ailment free. Not very many of them. If racing were done using your standard it would cease to exist in a month.
If it only continues to exist by forcing cripples to run, maybe it should cease to exist.
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Old 11-07-2018, 12:35 PM   #54
ronsmac
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You should spend some time on the backstretch and see how many horses are running injury or ailment free. Not very many of them. If racing were done using your standard it would cease to exist in a month.
That's why I get a chuckle when the outrage is over the use of the whip as if that's the most cruel part of horse racing.
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Old 11-07-2018, 12:56 PM   #55
AndyC
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If it only continues to exist by forcing cripples to run, maybe it should cease to exist.
Certainly should be a topic of conversation for all involved in racing.
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Old 11-07-2018, 12:59 PM   #56
papillon
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Well, three horses here ran against Justify. Mendelssohn ran OK. Catholic Boy and Lone Sailor were up the track.

And no three year old male from Justify's crop has yet won a major race against older horses.

So I think the evidence of a Justify romp is rather thin. Accelerate's best Beyers beat his.
Catholic Boy was Bayerned by Smith and McKenzie at the start. If Good Magic gets excused for the infentessimal interference in the Travers, Catholic Boy gets a pass too.

Justify never raced Catholic Boy, so no one gets to say woulda, esp since CB wiped the track with Justify's best competition in the Travers-- all of his best competition. CB won on two surfaces, Justify won on slop, slop that played as slop always does. No other slop horse has ever been ranked higher than a fast track horse.

Justify never raced Accelerate. His figs never were as good. The closest measure you have is Mendelssohn and Bravazo. Mendelssohn may not have won, but he demolished Justify's competition in the Travers and the JCGC, and hung on as long as he could--he never spit the bit, he hit the wall.

Bravazo's mile was valiant, he's a trier and I love that, but it wasn't Gun Runner's mile, which predicted his future and also franked his early competition.

Mendelssohn ran the same fractions on two continents and two surfaces and four tracks and two distances against specialists at those distances..

Other than his MSW and his ALLW against horses that have fallen off the face of the earth, Justify also ran the same fractions, fractions shared and repeated by his best competition, who never ran fast by the clock once.

On this board, McKenzie, who also ran those turtle fractions and barely beat the worldbeaters Bolt D'Oro and Solomini, until he beat a field of G3 and Allw level horses in the PA Derby, along with West Coast, who has only ever beaten Gunnevera, were hailed here as worldbeaters. West Coast's terrible looking Awesome Again, was hailed as proof of being much the best against Accelerate.

Mendelssohn wiped the track with both of them. McKenzie spit the bit at 6f and West Coast shortly after. So if Mendelssohn is garbage, they are worse than garbage. And Justify is garbage as well.

Thunder Snow has trounced West Coast twice now. One two continents and two tracks.

The three horses on the pace were caught, and almost caught, by two of the deepest, strongest closers racing. That's always been the test of whether the pace is real or not. Except in the Belmont, which is a bizarre race that rarely predicts future success of any kind. Closers never had a chance in Justify's snail races, again, except here, and except with CJ, closers have always been the true test that a pace as to whether pace is an illusion.

I don't care about HOTY. Justify is yesterday's news. He will never be mentioned with Secretariat and Slew and Affirmed and the Bid, or even lowly old CA Chrome. He won't even be mentioned with AP, except to spit shine AP's legacy.

So really who cares, $20k Accelerate is the Vox Populi winner, and that says it all, as does the fact we are even having this conversation.

Last edited by papillon; 11-07-2018 at 01:04 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-07-2018, 01:01 PM   #57
thaskalos
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If it only continues to exist by forcing cripples to run, maybe it should cease to exist.
Could not agree more!
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Old 11-07-2018, 01:05 PM   #58
Andy Asaro
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You should spend some time on the backstretch and see how many horses are running injury or ailment free. Not very many of them. If racing were done using your standard it would cease to exist in a month.
153 Pages of Vets list. Wow!

http://chrb.ca.gov/misc_docs/VetList.pdf
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Old 11-07-2018, 01:18 PM   #59
bobphilo
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Could not agree more!
Thanks. I'm glad to see we have some common ground.

The health and safety of all the horses,and the riders, should come first.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:24 PM   #60
burnsy
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Catholic Boy was Bayerned by Smith and McKenzie at the start. If Good Magic gets excused for the infentessimal interference in the Travers, Catholic Boy gets a pass too.

Justify never raced Catholic Boy, so no one gets to say woulda, esp since CB wiped the track with Justify's best competition in the Travers-- all of his best competition. CB won on two surfaces, Justify won on slop, slop that played as slop always does. No other slop horse has ever been ranked higher than a fast track horse.

Justify never raced Accelerate. His figs never were as good. The closest measure you have is Mendelssohn and Bravazo. Mendelssohn may not have won, but he demolished Justify's competition in the Travers and the JCGC, and hung on as long as he could--he never spit the bit, he hit the wall.

Bravazo's mile was valiant, he's a trier and I love that, but it wasn't Gun Runner's mile, which predicted his future and also franked his early competition.

Mendelssohn ran the same fractions on two continents and two surfaces and four tracks and two distances against specialists at those distances..

Other than his MSW and his ALLW against horses that have fallen off the face of the earth, Justify also ran the same fractions, fractions shared and repeated by his best competition, who never ran fast by the clock once.

On this board, McKenzie, who also ran those turtle fractions and barely beat the worldbeaters Bolt D'Oro and Solomini, until he beat a field of G3 and Allw level horses in the PA Derby, along with West Coast, who has only ever beaten Gunnevera, were hailed here as worldbeaters. West Coast's terrible looking Awesome Again, was hailed as proof of being much the best against Accelerate.

Mendelssohn wiped the track with both of them. McKenzie spit the bit at 6f and West Coast shortly after. So if Mendelssohn is garbage, they are worse than garbage. And Justify is garbage as well.

Thunder Snow has trounced West Coast twice now. One two continents and two tracks.

The three horses on the pace were caught, and almost caught, by two of the deepest, strongest closers racing. That's always been the test of whether the pace is real or not. Except in the Belmont, which is a bizarre race that rarely predicts future success of any kind. Closers never had a chance in Justify's snail races, again, except here, and except with CJ, closers have always been the true test that a pace as to whether pace is an illusion.

I don't care about HOTY. Justify is yesterday's news. He will never be mentioned with Secretariat and Slew and Affirmed and the Bid, or even lowly old CA Chrome. He won't even be mentioned with AP, except to spit shine AP's legacy.

So really who cares, $20k Accelerate is the Vox Populi winner, and that says it all, as does the fact we are even having this conversation.
But he won the Triple Crown , he’s a super horse! Far physically superior to Acelerate ! But his injuries are legit. Those connecting statements don’t make a lick of sense. But neither do fan boys.

Preaching to the choir. I said the same thing. But yours is better.
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