Class vs. Speed

[The Judge]

I don't know why but I woke up today and class handicapping was on my mind maybe it had to do with the tread on "keeping results charts" but I think this deserves a seperate thread. I know it's been talked about before but maybe there are some new ideas or at least some new people out there with something to add.
Andrew Beyer and I think Dick Mitchell said that "speed is class" meaning that if a horses ran a fast time it is a classy horse ,I agree that a classy horse will run a fast time but I disagree with their statement. I offer this scenario as an example. Horse "A" is a $20,000 claimer he consistantly runs a 6f time around 1:10 and wins but he can run as slow as 1:10.08 or a 1:10.4 and may run 2-4 he is now facing $40,000 claimers who run 1:10.00 our $20,000 runs nowhere near a 1:10 nor his low of 1:10.4 but runs a 1:11.1 and finishes off the board.
Does this show there is such a thing as class? If not what is class? How does it manifest itself on the race track?

[twindouble]

Originally Posted by The Judge

I don't know why but I woke up today and class handicapping was on my mind maybe it had to do with the tread on "keeping results charts" but I think this deserves a seperate thread. I know it's been talked about before but maybe there are some new ideas or at least some new people out there with something to add.
Andrew Beyer and I think Dick Mitchell said that "speed is class" meaning that if a horses ran a fast time it is a classy horse ,I agree that a classy horse will run a fast time but I disagree with their statement. I offer this scenario as an example. Horse "A" is a $20,000 claimer he consistantly runs a 6f time around 1:10 and wins but he can run as slow as 1:10.08 or a 1:10.4 and may run 2-4 he is now facing $40,000 claimers who run 1:10.00 our $20,000 runs nowhere near a 1:10 nor his low of 1:10.4 but runs a 1:11.1 and finishes off the board.
Does this show there is such a thing as class? If not what is class? How does it manifest itself on the race track?

This has always been a good question but I would define it some more, using finish times and how they relate to class posses a problem because the conditions of the races can play a big factor, for example, 2yo's, 3yo's or races 3yo's and up plus what track those fractions accured. A better example of what I'm saying is, here's a 3yo coming into his own going again'st older horses and wins going away in hand, true class was unknown for that horse. The track condition, pace or possable bias also effects the times.

Older Horses that are consistently competive in one or two class tiers and distance can in ones opinion be the class of the race if nothing else comes close.

[kenwoodallpromos]

My personal opinion and to simplify things I just say stamina is class.

[JustMissed]

My Webster has five definitons for Class.

#4-Grade or quality.

#5-slang excellence, as of style.

I wish we would use "grade" when referring to a race type or Class Level of a Race, if you please.

Seems to make more sense to me. A NW4L grade race is a tougher, faster race than a MC generally speacking. Just because a horse is running a NW4L race does not mean it has more "Class", as in definition #5. Just means they are at different stages of their racing career.

TD used the term "competitive". I like that word better when talking about horses of equal ability being beaten by the one horse with more heart and more testosterone.

We horseplayers seem to have gotten into the habit of using #4 & #5 interchangeabily and no one knows what the heck we are talking about.

From now on please us either "grade" or "competitive", otherwise you will be considered as having "no class".

JM

[46zilzal]

Class means being able to adpat to almost any pace scenario thrown at a horse and being able to covercome it.

[JimL]

46, You nailed it! JimL

[JackS]

Someone once wrote- "If ten horses were loaded into the gate without a jockey, and exact pecking order would develop as the horses made their way around the track. Class of class leading all others who have also assumed their rightful order in the chain."
IMO, If the "class " feels competive and wants to challange horses in front of him, the lesser horses have little(no) choice but to let him by.
Lesser horses can and do win however,probably becuase of a bid trip ,bad ride or in the case of a winning effort through the stretch , the better horse simply runs out of racetrack. Not a case of "too little to late" but a case of "plenty but too late".

[Grifter]

The nifty little aphorism that "Speed is class" works when you compare speed (final times) from class to class. But it's misleading, because it suggests there is no such thing as class.

The most instructive view on this (i.e., "instructive" because it accords with my own view) comes from another thread (a current one) on "Speeeeed" (missed some e's, I'm sure). This a Marc Cramer quote, posted by mcikey01:

This researcher has done extensive research on class drops which has let to a very reasonable theory based on the herding instinct principle. Horses dropping to their proper level can be expected to run faster, for when they are part of a herd of their equals or inferiors, they are more naturally inclined to run in a competitive way. Horses that are outclassed, on the other hand, can be projected to earn a lower Beyer figure than their potential, for once they feel intimidated by more dominant members of the herd, they surrender their fighting spirit.

Let's go out on a limb and say that Lost in the Fog will beat most $2500 claimers (here I pause to listen closely to dissenting voices...OK, pause over).

Let's imagine the match race between the $2500 claimer and LITF. In fact let's listen in on their conversation as they approach the post.

2500: "Excuse me, Mr. LITF, I don't wnat to bother you, but my connections require that I enter this match race against you. I know I have no chance, and am just happy to be in your presence. You are an Alpha male and we are herd animals, and if we were in the wild, I wouldn't get any mares. Except, maybe, the ones you don't want -- and that are not in heat. Could you autograph my program, please?"

LITF: "I'd be pleased to autograph your program. Please kneel and place it under my hoof. Also, flatten your ears and do not look me in the eye, or I'll kick your brains out. I will go out in slow-as-hell-and-change, and you will stay a respectful 20 lengths behind at the half, and fall further behind. You will run at least 30 lengths slower than you would against the rabble you usally hang out with. I will preen as I cross the finish line. Stay out of wide-angle camera range. Got it?"

2500: "Yessir, got it."

LITF: "Good. How are the wife and kids?"

-- Grifter

[oddswizard]

There are many ways to judge both speed or class. To use pace or speed as a handicapping tool works up to 7 furlongs. In route races Class is superior to pace or speed. I use the top 3 pace rated horses in sprints and the top 3 class horses in distance races. One ot the top 3 will win 70% in either case and that works for me. Then I put money management to work to earn profits.

[Dave Schwartz]

If I may put forth an opinion, I would say that "class" has 2 definitions (as applicable to horse racing).

1. The relative strength level of the horses entered in the race.
This can certainly (and probably should) be measured as a function of the likely speed (i.e. in consideration of final time and/or pace) of the horses in the race.

2. The relative strength level of the horses that are usually entered in a race such as this one.
In other words, this is the level of this race based upon the conditions of the race.


Note that the two definitions, while similar, serve different purposes.

The first addresses what it will likely take to win today after the entries are drawn while the second definition addresses what it will take before the draw.

The first is used for handicapping the race from a standpoint of who is likely to win, probabilities, etc., while the second is used to determine trainer intent, claiming decisions, etc.

Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

What good is class without form?

Does a horse have x class units for life, or does he lose units with age?
Where does back class fit in? Is the horse classy when he feels good, or is he always classy, just sore sometimes?

Was Tizz Now classy two days in two years (BC) and not classy the rest of the time?

Does class vary over time?
Who was clasier - Sunday Silence of Easy Goer? Was EG classy in NY and nowwhere else?

(Wonderings from someone who has been told more than once that he has no idea what class is!)

[JackS]

Tom -Good questions. Are all million dollar G1 horses worth a million? Are all 10k claimers really worth 10K?. I think only the horses know. Breeders and trainers are always making a judgment call.

[twindouble]

Tom, stop eating those bananas! You just discribed me to a tee.

[keilan]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

If I may put forth an opinion, I would say that "class" has 2 definitions (as applicable to horse racing).

1. The relative strength level of the horses entered in the race.
This can certainly (and probably should) be measured as a function of the likely speed (i.e. in consideration of final time and/or pace) of the horses in the race.

2. The relative strength level of the horses that are usually entered in a race such as this one.
In other words, this is the level of this race based upon the conditions of the race.


Note that the two definitions, while similar, serve different purposes.


The first addresses what it will likely take to win today after the entries are drawn while the second definition addresses what it will take before the draw.

The first is used for handicapping the race from a standpoint of who is likely to win, probabilities, etc., while the second is used to determine trainer intent, claiming decisions, etc.

Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Dave once again – solid post

Class = speed (velocity) / stamina (speed carried over distance) / and heart ( no explanation required)

I'm assuming that everyone can tell the difference between cheap speed vs class based on the above. Raise your hand if still unclear

[The Judge]

I agree with Grifter I would just say it in a different way. I think horses know in a general way who a superior horse is. I think they know without having to race. They know that when they are brought to the paddock that it's race day and not some exercise or training session, they know they are there to race other horses they look around to see if they can compete, are there any familiar faces?

I remember I think it was the Breeders Cup Sunday Silence was fine until Easy Goer showed up then he went wild. We as humans know when we are outclassed before we compete in most physical activities. We can tell when someone is in better shape or more muscular.,taller,quicker. In April I went to the Penn Relays they ran from Junior High School thru the U.S Olympic teams. You could tell from the sound who was running. The US Olympic team thundered down the track ,they hit the track with an unmistakable sound of pure power. Each stride you could hear this rhythmic pound as their feet hit the track. The other Olympic teams had this sound also but only a few of the college teams seem to have it and none of the High School teams had it.

You could also see the physcial diffence between these athletes even thou they were all in great condition , the Olympic athletes were perfect condition. If anything happens on the track I think the lower class horse can here the diffence early in the race and can feel the diffence. He runs as fast as he can and horses are along side him or in front and they aren't slowing down this only has to happen for a very short distance. They become discouraged and quit.