Run up distances - Page 3 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

andymays · 06-03-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FenceBored

Ok, stupid question time.

The run-up is not included in the distance of the race, right? A 6f with 24ft run up is actually 6f and 24 ft with a timed distance of 6f.

If so, wouldn't that mean that a 1mile 40yd race at a track with a less than 50 ft run-up at that distance is actually shorter gate to wire than a 1 mile race with 172 ft run-up at Santa Anita, even though the timed distance is longer?

For timing purposes it's still 6 furlongs but the Horses get a running start. Depending on the distance of the run up the 1 fraction can vary greatly. The longer the run up distance the faster the 1 quarter of the race will be. If memory serves me right a Track like Churchill has a little longer run up for 6 furlongs than the other sprint distances therefore a real quick quarter isn't quite as quick as it may seem in comparison to say a 5 1/2 furlong 1st quarter of the same time. I believe Pimlico has a very short run up for 6 furlongs and thats why you see a lot of 23 and change 1st quarters.

cj · 06-03-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

For timing purposes it's still 6 furlongs but the Horses get a running start. Depending on the distance of the run up the 1 fraction can vary greatly. The longer the run up distance the faster the 1 quarter of the race will be.

The run up certainly does have an effect on final time, but not near as much as it does on the fractions.

With final time, on dirt at least, horses are slowing down as the race progresses. So, the longer run up will lead to a faster start, but some of that is negated since the horses are running longer and slowing down.

andymays · 06-03-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj

The run up certainly does have an effect on final time, but not near as much as it does on the fractions.

With final time, on dirt at least, horses are slowing down as the race progresses. So, the longer run up will lead to a faster start, but some of that is negated since the horses are running longer and slowing down.

The reason the pace is important is that you can add or eliminate contenders based upon the probable pace of the race and the more educated your guess is as to the probable pace the better chance you have of connecting on all wagers including Tri's and Supers.

On synthetic surfaces like Santa Anita or Golden Gate the pace has almost no bearing in my opinion especially at a distance of ground. That's why I hate most synthetic surfaces! The one at Hollywood right now is more like dirt and therefore the pace is important.

46zilzal · 06-03-2009, 11:44 AM

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much

andymays · 06-03-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much

Many times you can eliminate a short priced favorite if that favorite is a need the lead type. Knowing another Horse is faster early based on run up discrepancies is a big edge.

46zilzal · 06-03-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

Many times you can eliminate a short priced favorite if that favorite is a need the lead type. Knowing another Horse is faster early based on run up discrepancies is a big edge.

A need to lead can/ cannot be eliminated without that run up knowledge just as easily if there is sufficient pace pressure from others. Pine Tree Land figured to outbreak the NTL' Groovy without run up distances and negated his chances at Santa Anita's Breeder's Cup.

andymays · 06-03-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

A need to lead can/ cannot be eliminated without that run up knowledge just as easily if there is sufficient pace pressure from others. Pine Tree Land figured to outbreak the NTL' Groovy without run up distances and negated his chances at Santa Anita's Breeder's Cup.

Totally disagree based on my experience. Any edge you can get in this game helps.

46zilzal · 06-03-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

Totally disagree based on my experience. Any edge you can get in this game helps.

K.I.S.S. abounds in this game: it is a well guarded secret however.

andymays · 06-03-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

K.I.S.S. abounds in this game: it is a well guarded secret however.

I certainly appreciate the advice but knowing run ups is a basic part of Pace Handicapping.

DanG · 06-03-2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

40 feet in over 3000 is going to make a difference? Hardly that much

46,

I’m very surprised your taking this stance on run-ups and there importance. I’ve seen you post energy profiles and making fine line distinctions with them. Run-ups can have a HUGE impact on velocity / energy numbers as you know...don't you?

BTW: I never thanked you for beating the drum on how ‘median energy’ was a superior measurement to the old Sartin / Brohamer energy formula. You were very right (imo) and thanks very much for the heads up.

andymays · 06-03-2009, 02:19 PM

From Churchill Downs. I got this run up information in two separate emails from a guy named Butch Lehr.

The run ups are all approximately 50ft. with one exception for 6 furlongs. It is approximately 80ft. We always move the gate a little bit one way or the other to offset setting in the same spot over and over for safety reasons.

On the turf, when we move our rails for letting the grass recover we have 3 different lanes that we also have separate timing devices for all the distances we race at and they all are calibrated for the purpose of moving the rail, that are true distances from start to finish. The run ups are approx. 50 ft as well.

Santa Anita and Churchill are so different in their run ups that it's scary!

andymays · 06-03-2009, 02:29 PM

From Del Mar. From: Mac McBride ...Subject: RE: Timer Question

Andrew --
There are standard "run-up" distances at all tracks. We have a set number here at Del Mar and we publish the list periodically in the program. I've posted them below for you:

--- Mac McBride

Main Track --- One Mile --- 220 feet
All other distances --- 45 feet

Turf Course --- (with rails at zero)
Five Furlongs --- 15 feet
One Mile --- 110 feet
One and 1/16th Miles --- 45 feet
One and 1/8 Miles --- 45 feet
One and 3/8 Miles --- N/A

(Rails out)
Five Furlongs -- 20 feet
One Mile --- 145 feet
One and 1/16 Miles --- 36 feet
One and 1/8 Miles -- 36 feet
One and 3/8 Miles -- 156 feet

andymays · 06-03-2009, 03:06 PM

From Emerald Downs..

Thank you for your correspondence. The run up distance is approximately 50 feet for each race distance at Emerald Downs.

Sincerely,

Kerry Dalton
Director of Merchandising/Website
Emerald Downs

andymays · 06-03-2009, 03:47 PM

This is the answer I just got from the NYRA..

They change every day with every race, the racing form is keeping this information and publishing it in the past performances.
PJ Campo

Amazing!

If the DRF has the info and is publishing it then it must be available right?

This answer from P J Campo doesn't look good for the NYRA in my opinion.

cj · 06-03-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymays

This is the answer I just got from the NYRA..

They change every day with every race, the racing form is keeping this information and publishing it in the past performances.
PJ Campo

Amazing!

If the DRF has the info and is publishing it then it must be available right?

This answer from P J Campo doesn't look good for the NYRA in my opinion.

If the track superintendent couldn't tell me why the gate placement varied, who could? To be fair, I would not expect the racing secretary to be involved or even care much, I'm sure he has better things to worry about.